Speaker 2 (00:00.056)
Hello and welcome to Management Under Construction podcast. I'm Dee Davis.
And I'm Brandon Wyant and today we are talking about a very sensitive, very fraught, very emotional topic, male toxicity in the workplace. We're going to start off with some stories of our experiences with male toxicity and Dee is going to lead it off. So go ahead, Dee.
Yeah, this is a really uncomfortable conversation for everybody, for men, for women, for any human. It's not intended to be an attack or criticism of anybody. It's a, it's a discussion about something that exists in our society and it impacts us all every single day. So my personal story, course, obviously not a male, right? But I still see it. I still experience it, but I experience it in a different way than a male would.
I wanted to share a story about an apprentice that I helped bring into the trade at one point. It was a friend's son, good kid, hard worker, really wanted to land a good job. And I said, Hey, what about the apprenticeship? Here's all the different apprenticeships. How can I help you? And we got him signed up at the hall and brought him into the fab shop. A friend of mine was running the fab shop.
It did not go well. This kid was just a real quiet kid and just not the kind of guy that just sat and participated in a lot of the traditional guy stuff. And at lunchtime, apparently he was labeled as weird because he didn't participate with everybody else at lunchtime in the conversations, whatever all was happening at lunchtime. And he preferred to sit and read at lunch.
Speaker 2 (01:54.4)
So he was immediately outcast and they started calling him names and berating him. eventually the key, after a couple of months, the kid quit and you can't hardly blame him. And that always broke my heart because the kid was a really good kid. He was a hard worker who was perfectly capable of doing the work, but the toxic male environment got to him. It was more than he was willing to put up with.
And so we ended up losing a perfectly good apprentice because of just not fitting into the predetermined mold and being labeled weird and different just because the guy was quiet and wanted to read. Crazy.
Wow. That's a really tough story here. Somebody being ostracized for not participating in the mail.
shooting the shit thing and just all of sudden and and things like that go on. And that's, that's not the way it should be. People should be more accepting and open, especially when it comes to people's livelihoods. People trying to provide for their families, people trying to do a job. That's, that's just inexcusable to create a space where somebody can't do that. That's not what this country is about. That's not what freedom and life, liberty, pursuit of happiness is all about. That's total bullshit.
Yeah. So what's your story, Brad?
Speaker 1 (03:27.278)
So my story is a little more personal being the guy of the podcast here. I want to talk about my understanding and experiences with male toxicity from a very young age, because that's where my understanding of this all begins. We're going to talk about a lot of it today, but it's always good to start with the beginning. When I was a little kid, I was not very hand-micronated. I was not good at sports. I was not athletic. Turned out later I have asthma, so I couldn't run as fast as a lot of people could, a lot of guys. And I ended up finding my stride in musical theater.
the fifth and sixth grade, I realized I had perfect pitch, which is just something you've worn with or not, which is I was lucky to have for pitch to be able to tell the tone of any musical instrument being played at any given time to know whether it's in tune or not, to know if your voice is on pitch or not. That's what perfect pitch is. And I was good at singing and I could read sheet music pretty quickly and I could understand the math of it. And I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed putting on a show and telling a story through the heater.
And all of the guys I grew up with in middle school and high school called me gay because doing anything besides sports, especially something as fruity quote unquote as musical theater is just gay. And if you do that, then you're gay. You're not a man. You're not one of us and you can't hang out with us. You're not part of this club. You're not a real man. And I grew up with that ostracization in middle school and in male spaces where I wasn't
a man because I wasn't doing the things that men do. was doing. Immasculine things, feminine things, and it's shaped the way I view my male friendships. It's shaped the way I view male spaces. It's shaped the way I approach my life in many ways because I never took it for granted when I was accepted into a male space. That was something that I deserved. That was always an, okay, I'm being accepted by the guys. This is something special. This is something unique.
for me to approach a male space in the male toxicity that way has given me a deep appreciation for what is toxic in estrogen, I think, and what isn't, or at least as deep as anybody can have who's not an anthropologist, who's 30 years old, but not an expert. I have no true deep expertise, but I have my own experience to share. I hope that those will be meaningful.
Speaker 2 (05:42.946)
That is something that I think anybody listening could relate to, whether it's either happened to them or they've seen it happen to someone else. And that's exactly what we're talking about today. This whole idea of a man card and not being man enough or not being male enough and being constantly judged by your male peers as to whether or not what you're doing is enough.
Based on my observations, it's a very imprecise set of guidelines for behavior. And that goalpost seems to be moving all the time. And it seems to be constantly challenged. I watched a couple of Ted talks over the last few years about this topic and they were pretty gosh darn powerful.
Hm.
It could be anything from the clothes you're wearing to the words you choose to use being well-spoken sometimes can be considered not the most manly thing, which I think is strange behavior, how you act towards other men. And for one of the things that affects women a lot is how you act towards women, the bravado and the.
Treating women like an object is part of it. You're expected to do that. And if you don't, maybe you don't like girls. It's the whole pulling the girl you likes ponytail thing. Leisure activities, just exactly what you just described. What you choose to do with your time is considered manly or not manly. Even down to the kind of pets you own. will never forget when I was.
Speaker 2 (07:36.204)
working on a campus, I was dealing with this one person that worked for the campus a lot. And I would see them all the time. Super nice guy. Just big, burly, manly man. Guy. Deep voice, the whole nine yards. And I noticed that he always wore this gold ring that had a lion on it. And one day I said to him, I said, Hey, I really like your lion ring. That's really unique. And I like jewelry.
And he says, yeah, I like cats, but it's not very manly. So I wear a lion ring. And he goes, I have cats, but don't tell anybody. have three cats. I like cats. I said, I like cats too. And that's always stuck with me that this intelligent, good looking.
guy, just, he was just a regular guy. He was so afraid that other men were going to call him out for liking cafes. It's silly, but at the same time, I get it.
Speaker 2 (08:53.902)
Okay. So again, from my point of view, sitting over here watching, this seems to be something that men do to each other constantly. Everything that you do, you say, who you hang around with, how you behave, what kind of pets you own, how you dress, is judged to be inside or outside the boundaries and men calling each other on this constantly and constantly challenging each other. What's that like from a male point of view, Brad?
It's exhausting in some ways, but it's also a feature of it to the point where it's just expected. So a book I read a couple of years ago by Lou Ann Brizendine called The Male Brain.
frames the behavior you're describing as something very natural and very observed in nature and in men. That's when there are male gorillas in the same space, there's an alpha, there's a one in charge as a leader and the ones surrounding that leader challenge the leader from time to time and are either beaten or take the position. you could probably frame a lot of that man card
pulling or challenging in the same context of this need for there to be a hierarchy of who is the most male, who is the biggest, the strongest, the leader. And for these slights to be attacks on that is just part of nature. But it's not necessarily justified for that reason either. It's explained, but not correct for that reason.
Any environment where you have to constantly be getting legs up on each other is waste. That's just not the way that we should be as people. It's not a curious way to approach life. Going back to on the job site, that is a great example. This guy with his lion ring where really he just cares about cats. Cats are cool. Cats are fascinating. They have very interesting little lives and they're not, it's not invalid for a man to like cats. It's crazy to me.
Speaker 1 (11:07.122)
and another example of that from my career, when I was fresh out of college, one of the superintendents that we, hired on during the middle of project. One day he drove a Boxster to work and he had bought a Boxter over the weekend, they use Intuit and I was a huge Top Gear fan. So I joined in the ribbing of this guy because people make fun of each other on a job site, male, female, everyone makes fun of everybody. That's just part of job site culture, which is not entirely.
wrong and everybody else a hairdresser's car. It's a total chick car. What are you doing with the Boxster? He was like, Oh, whatever. was 10 grand. It's a great car and I love driving it. I was like, yeah, okay. I was wrong. I fucked up just now. That was not a cool thing to do. I should have just asked him then curious and then, Hey, I know you used to ride a Harley. What's with the motor site? What's with the Boxster? Tell me more about it. Do you like it? Is it cool? Fast? Now I'm super into forces and I test drove a Boxster once and Boxsters are awesome. They're cool.
shaming somebody for doing something that's feminine like that was what happened to me in high school. And it's not the right way to treat people. It's not the right way to further the male group at all.
Yeah, you bring up an important point about the participation. There's pressure to participate, to fit in and to participate in something as identified as perhaps outside the boundary. Somebody says something, wow, you're driving a chick car. And then everybody piles on. And in the natural world that you bring up.
with gorillas, lions, whatever it is, the goal is to win superior mating rights in the herd and, or pride or whatever it is.
Speaker 2 (13:06.818)
So perhaps it's a leftover piece of our heritage from way, way back that.
There's slightly less males than females population wise. think it's 49, 51, something like that for humans.
We don't have necessarily always those mating right environments anymore because, okay, if you're out, I don't even know what people do to meet each other. It's four women in their twenties. That's so far behind me. But back in the day, it was the singles bar. You'd go out and even think those exist anymore, but you would go to the singles bar and you're in your twenties and there's a flock of men and a flock of women and the men are.
They identify a few that they're interested in and then that now they're competing with each other. And it's not in that kind of an environment, it's not that different with women, to be perfectly honest with you. It's, it displays itself differently. It can display itself as tearing each other down and ridiculing each other and that kind of thing. But oftentimes a lot of it is it's the primping and the preening and the who can spend 18 hours getting ready to go out.
spend the most time and have the most trendy looks. And I don't know, I never lived in that world myself. But it's a thing. And I don't know, like I said, I don't know where these people are doing this now. I'm sure there's They tell you where they are. Really, no matter whether it's men or it's women, it's the exclusion or ridicule of anybody that doesn't meet the standard.
Speaker 2 (15:00.654)
whatever that standard is, and that standard seems to be constantly moving and changing. One of the behaviors that I, I used to see it a lot and I don't know if this is still a thing, maybe you could tell me. Calling men by women's names now, it may be different names now, but that was one of the behaviors that if, if somebody did, man did something or said something or were something.
They would start calling them by a woman's name and they used to use names like things that are very clearly women's names, Nancy, Sally, things like that. would, that was a, it was a way of name calling and it was implying maybe they're gay, maybe they're less than male, maybe they're like a girl.
Right. I didn't see that growing up or even later on, it was just called who would gain stead, which is its own fraud screwed up thing, but in different forms, people will say the same thing with different words these days.
Yeah. Run like a girl, throw like a girl. Those were other things that would, I heard a lot in my youth, comparing to something that's like a girl, which in that, the implication is it's less than. I would say I've seen it go as far as encouraging the bigger of a jerk you are.
more of a man you are. I've seen it go that far. and again, in my generation, I don't know if that's still true.
Speaker 1 (16:35.478)
And that's the thing that really bothers me because then I think a lot of the time when there's a majority women environment, the men, it's a scene that we're going to be dumber because jerk behavior being the thing that's prized doesn't get you much smarter. You enter a group project in an NBA environment and women have a presupposition about the men because the men just aren't going to be smarter that they're men. It's okay. That's not necessarily true. I hear what you're saying in the whole.
being a jerk, being unkind, being rude, being forceful as a male behavior, as opposed to the opposite stereotypical female behavior of socializing issues, figuring things out, collaborating and moving forward on principle. It is a huge part of the toxic male problem. I was lucky enough to have my first boss in construction be a woman and to watch her do the job of project manager.
In an environment where there were a bunch of men who just wanted to yell and scream and then settle in the middle over nothing, watching her sit and dissect and not lose her emotions and be very cool and collected and analytical and logical and bring the emotion of the room down and force these blustering men to sit and really think about things and then come away with the right resolution was a masterclass on
overcoming that kind of toxic masculinity in the workplace.
Yeah. And you bring up anger, at least in my observation, it seems like the only emotion that men are encouraged to express is anger. That's a negative emotion. It's an emotion every human feels, but that's the only emotion that is socially acceptable for them to.
Speaker 2 (18:25.422)
express, whereas women are expected to express multiple emotions, which is interesting. What are the causes? Where does this come from? Besides perhaps ancient history of human competition, where does this come from? To some extent, I think it comes from some homophobia.
which I find very interesting because a lot of it is, taught, we've said it several times. The implication is you throw out the insult, are you gay?
Speaker 2 (18:59.606)
Meaning that's a bad thing. It's a non-male thing. And funny thing is, is you go back in history, being gay has a very long, long history in humanity. And in many cultures it's accepted or it's quietly accepted. In American culture, I've seen it change a lot, even in my lifetime.
I think there's some basis there of that being, okay, if you're, if you don't like women, then you're less of a man. Okay. Perhaps I got to tell you, some of the gay men that I know are very masculine. I'm just saying.
Yeah, I think one of the questions that comes up is what is masculine is masculine is liking women is being attracted to women necessarily masculine. And I think the new definition of masculinity, luckily, thankfully includes people who aren't attracted to women. And that's to the better. think it used to be certainly that being a man had to do with getting women because there's a
Like we were talking earlier with the dating with the first rights to procreation, the very, very basic understanding of that whole thing.
Evolving what it means to email beyond that, I think is a very important part of what's happening as culture evolves here. And it's going to be better for everybody because it's not just going to be about this bullshit bar scene behavior anymore. It's going to be a more evolved version of what it means to be a man. I think that's just better for everyone.
Speaker 2 (20:48.79)
Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk about the phenomena or potentially phenomena. And again, I don't spend any time in men's restrooms. They're always making fun of it on TV, in sitcoms and things like that. And there's an episode of two and a half men where they make fun of this. And I've seen it on other sitcoms where men go into the bathroom and they don't look at any other men. They don't talk to any other men. They stand as far apart as possible. Is that real?
The reason that's funny, I think, is because there's this worry that men are insecure about the male genitalia. This podcast is off the rails already. Here we go. the biggest swinging dick, that's the, that's part of the male thing. And keeping that private is also part of male thing in the bathroom because no one wants to reveal and not know the other person. It's a hole. So that's not how it's been my experience.
Some of the best jokes I've ever heard in my life have been standing at the urinal peeing from some of my favorite men I've ever worked with. One of the guys I worked with on a projects were both at the urinal and he just goes, you know, what you're doing is illegal. said, what is it? Just the shock of somebody having anything to say in that position, which is hung. And he goes, a grown man holding a child's penis. That's illegal. I just.
burst out laughing and that is my favorite bathroom joke of all time now because it was the shock value of it and it was just the what is just hilarious. It's like an insult. It's a male insult because he's calling me a small penis man. It was just so funny and couldn't get over it for days. was just the, then he just had the guts to just say that joke where it's just like.
ever.
Speaker 2 (22:48.205)
So it's.
I think that's positive masculinity when you're sitting there and just like in this weird awkward position and he just cracks this joke. still a little bit of who's got the biggest dick thing, but it's just, I loved it. I thought it was hilarious.
That's funny. So is it unusual for men to talk to each other at the urinal like that in your experience? It's unusual to have a conversation of any kinds. So the shock value is partially that you're talking at all.
That was definitely the shock value. was that we were talking at all. And I think now I'm much more, after that joke was told, I've become a lot more comfortable chatting up with somebody who I hadn't seen for a while at the urinal. Oh, Hey, how's it going? Just breaking into a conversation. Some guys take that weird other guys, just whatever and go with it. I it's to each their own. I don't think that I'm expert enough to say that is, or is not the culture, but that's my experience.
So what about in a public restroom? You're not at a job site where you know people, you're just out in public. it?
Speaker 1 (23:54.306)
yeah, I learned your work for sure. Unless, unless there's some drastic reason to have a conversation. You definitely are in your own world. Quiet.
it. Gotcha. Yeah. I know they always make fun of that in the sitcoms and it seems like every long running sitcom has at least one episode where they kind of address that quiet eyes forward. are you talking to me? I don't think so. I can only assume that's a true thing. guys definitely cover up, you know, what, is the reason? Okay. Yes. There's the vulnerability of.
What you're doing, there's some vulnerability there. Do you think there's some homophobia there?
Over. Sure. Yeah. So there's a great male comedian who does this joke about, do I go here? This is really off the rails now.
Hey, we can always cut it out if we decide to not use it.
Speaker 1 (24:53.26)
Let's go ahead and go there. We'll see it and we'll give it a week and we'll think about it. Male comedian who I really think is hilarious, Daniel Sloss does this whole bit about what the male G-spot is. They're not worried about it being a button. They're worried about being a switch where it's going to turn them gay. If that happens. And there's a payoff. I wasn't just saying weird stuff to say weird stuff. Men are terrified, especially men who aren't accepting the fact that they're gay. If they are gay.
Ha
Speaker 1 (25:21.368)
Heterosexual men are terrified of the idea of somehow becoming gay, I think. And that's something that we all have to get over. It's a fear of losing a part of yourself, but it's also a fear of being seen as less than by other men, which brings us back to the conversation we had earlier about that definition changing that gay men are not less men anymore. First gay man in the NFL, huge.
barrier being broken there. That's the kind of thing that moves the conversation forward, that moves the male culture forward in a meaningful way.
Yeah, I think you bring up a really valid point that, I'm wondering too, if it's a feeling of a loss of control. And I think most people don't like the idea that they might not be in control of their actions. So wanting to fit in, not wanting to be different is really the root cause of a lot of the toxic.
behavior that we're talking about and men covering up their fear with humor, which is just a very human thing to do. I think there's plenty of women that do the same thing. I think it's a very human thing to do to cover up fear with humor. So I want to talk about how this really impacts men though. And that's the subject of some of the Ted talks that I've listened to on this topic is what this is really doing to our men.
how this is really impacting them, the constant feeling of insecurity and needing to prove yourself. That's extremely toxic and that's just men doing it to other men. That's exclusive of how it impacts everyone else. But I never thought about it that way until I listened to a man doing a TED talk about it.
Speaker 2 (27:28.844)
Just that constant, almost like a knot in your gut about always being judged and never being sure if you're going to measure up and constantly having to prove that you're enough. Women experience this exact same thing, but in a very different way. And I just never, not being a man, I never thought about it, but it's, of course that's true.
Yeah. Weakness in the male culture is so fraught trying to cover up weakness, trying to shield any personal weaknesses or doubts you might have and appear confident to appear. No culture encourages weakness, but in the male culture, especially weaknesses are to be dealt with on your own. Whereas I think women.
are much more willing to talk out with each other, how to solve each other's problems into these sounding boards. At least this is my observation, which I don't know if you feel that way or either either D, but for men to share something that you're struggling with, to share something that you are dealing with that you don't know how to move forward with or that is hurting you, that's bringing you down. That's, that's you'd have to be very close friends with another man to share that kind of thing.
And I've seen men share those kinds of things with other men and then have those men treat that person differently forever afterwards and be like, you got problems. I don't have problems. People out here know you have problems. Now people don't know my problem. So I hate to put this way to you, but you're just not one of the guys. that, that, that kind of crap is
so selfish, so self-centered in that for you to think, thank goodness that person out of themselves and now they're going to be viewed as weaker. I get a leg up. It's so you, not me. It's let me get a rung up on this person. And it's the kind of thing that builds into that toxic masculinity that falls squarely in the definition of what it means to have a toxic male environment where
Speaker 1 (29:41.346)
weakness is used against people instead of supported and mentored out or fixed in the right
Yeah. Yeah. You're making me recall a situation where I'm not sure I behaved in the right way. I had a project where I had a project engineer that was working, I had several project engineers working for me and I had a rotation thing going on is where people would come to me for periods of time and work on my project and for some training and then they would go on to other projects.
This one young gentleman that came to us for a couple of months was having marital issues. And I had pulled him aside because we were having a lot of performance issues on the job. just wasn't getting things done, wasn't following through. So I pulled him aside to talk to him about performance issues. And the next thing I know, he's crying. And my first reaction is there's no crying in construction.
To admit I went straight there, let it go. I can't believe you're crying on a job site. Oh my God, are you kidding me? It was very unexpected. I had no idea what was going on until he started telling me was having all these issues in his marriage and it was really impacting him. And the person, I have to hand it to the guy. He sat there and just dumped him and it sounds like he needed someone. He needed to tell someone.
At the time I was so taken aback by the whole situation. That's not what I expected to happen. I listened and woo, lot of details that were quite uncomfortable for me. And I can imagine we're not very comfortable for him either. And just broken down, bawling on a job site, which is just not something you see very often in our industry. And I walked away from that thinking.
Speaker 2 (31:46.702)
First of all, wow, what just happened? And second of all, we were not close in any way, but we barely knew each other. And I'm thinking, why did this person choose to tell me all this stuff? And that, that felt very strange. Maybe I was safe because I was female. Maybe I was safe because I don't know him very well.
And sometimes it's like going to a therapist almost it's sometimes it's easier to tell someone you don't know than it is to tell someone you do know. So these kinds of things, when somebody does display vulnerable masculinity, how did I react to that? My reaction was, whoa, unexpected.
I really struggled a little bit with how to respond to that. Did I respond appropriately? Probably not. Did I have thoughts and feelings in response to that that were maybe not as supportive as I could have been or not as appropriate as I should have had? Probably. I, again, part of it was just being so surprised.
But I reflect on that and I think I honestly can't even remember what I said in response to all of that. I don't deal super well with, call it emotional throw up. We all have to have emotional throw up from time to time. And it's okay. I tend to be somebody that likes to do that in private, not in public or in front of other people. So did I react the best to it? Was I the most supportive?
I have to admit that maybe it wasn't my best moment.
Speaker 1 (33:41.1)
I totally get that. think what you're describing is something that the youth popular culture has dealt with a little bit. There are a lot of tensions right now going on with my generation with what it means to be male, what it to be a what it means for feminism to be positive, what it means for masculinity to positive. And there are all these videos where women will talk about something they term the ick, ICK like gross.
They'll have a, a preface where it's like totally about men being vulnerable mention, share their emotions, that, and the other thing. And then it'll go to a man like sharing his emotions and talking about things as insecure about, or, or, or struggles he's having. And then we'll, women will be like, got the icon I dumped it. It's so it's this whole, so the male reaction to that has been, okay, so you want us to be vulnerable, but not actually.
What was it really mean that these things were saying about how we want our men to be? And when there's mixed messaging like that, when there are terms like the getting thrown out around there, it's not, it's an important conversation to have. think there's no one right answer, but it's certainly sought to walk that line as a man to be okay. I need to be vulnerable, not too vulnerable. need to be strong enough, but not so strong that I'm just the stoic unapproachable.
monolith, what is the right way to be a man? There's a lot of discourse around that.
Yeah, that's, that sounds an awful lot like some of the stuff that women go through. I know that as a woman, you constantly feel judged by other women and whatever you do, it's wrong. Especially when it comes to parenting. If you work, that's wrong. If you stay home, that's wrong. If you spank your kids, that's wrong. If your kids are brats and they're never disciplined, that's wrong. If you feed your kids.
Speaker 2 (35:44.472)
Brutal loops, that's wrong. you feel it's just, there's no, you can never be right. And I think it's some of the same kinds of things is that we're asking men as women, we're asking men, want you to be this and this, but then when you're that, it's not enough. It's not good enough. It's, don't actually want to see you cry.
Yeah. I want to be enough that you could cry, but I want you to actually cry because that's.
I just wanna know that-
Speaker 2 (36:12.362)
Yeah, that's healthy. Men feel, I imagine they feel angry, they feel frustrated, they feel certainly unsupported by maybe anyone, other men, women, feelings of fear that they're constantly going to be challenged or called out for a man card violation and this mythical man card.
that is issued to you upon birth and you're beat over the head with it your entire life in every situation that you come across. I can imagine men don't feel safe anywhere.
It requires a lot of comfort, a lot of trust, I think, but that's like you're saying for women to be able to share themselves with other women. It's a similar thing. I certainly had a lot of, I was trying to build some trust in a male environment. When I went to college, I joined the rowing team and I had been doing nothing but musical theater, middle school, high school, very mixed gender environment. A lot of women, a lot of men, lot of different kinds of emotions, lots of some male spaces, a lot of female spaces in musical theater.
And then I got to college and I was like, you know what? want to try something to do a different one. Be an all male space. want to see what this is all about. And my sophomore year, I hurt my back and I couldn't row anymore. And all the guys that I had been friendly with just ostracized me. like, you're not part of the team anymore. So we can't hang out. You're not one of the guys anymore. You're not part of this thing that we were part of.
And we were all in the same place, sweating on the same thing all the time. And once you're not doing that, there isn't as much there, but I certainly felt like it was like, you're just a pussy. You're just not a man. You should have graded down and stayed on the team and kept rolling. Even though your back was messed up. I had scoliosis where it was to the point where if I kept going, I was going to do a re I was just going to have back pain the rest of my life. have a nip, this direction in my body is just all.
Speaker 1 (38:23.278)
It was a lack of respect. So you didn't tough it out. You're not one of the guys. And they could be just as catty. I think a lot of.
media about women describes women as talking behind each other's backs at their worst. that men would never do that. Men are just too stoic to supporting. Not true. There's no catty group in the world than a group of 45 and older superintendents who are just sitting around the job site talking shit about their foreman who, and others, other people's foremen and people on the job site and the other, they will
I can't believe that.
Speaker 1 (39:01.632)
shit talk with the best of them and gossip and it's men are not immune to that kind of thing at all.
No, I would a hundred percent agree with that. And I can tell that from way over here. In fact, if I want gossip and I want to know what's going on, I go ask the guys in the field. The apprentices, the journeyman, everybody. Oh my gosh, they're a way better source of information than any group of women I've ever encountered. If I want to know what's going on, I go ask the field and it's the guys that know they're hilarious. So.
Bye!
I would say that this really this toxicity that men put each other through, and I don't know, I think there's probably a fair amount of women contributing to some of this as well. It impacts society. We have men and you had said it at the very beginning, when I asked you, does it feel? You said it's exhausting. And I think this is what happens is that we have men spending all their time and energy or not all, but so much of their time and energy.
proving themselves that their time and their energy can't be spent on things that are actually productive and helpful to them, society, to themselves as individual humans, in all the roles that we play, father, brother, son, colleague, friend, coworker, uncle, whatever roles you play.
Speaker 2 (40:38.612)
It takes away from contributing to what you can actually be at the end of the day and who you really are. Which I think is very sad, because that's not productive. It's not helpful. And I think it contributes significantly to men being afraid to be allies to women in the workplace, especially in these very heavily male dominated environments. Like construction.
other environments where women come in and they're an extreme minority.
Women need male allies. And I have been so fortunate to have so many in my career, in the office, in the field, anywhere that I needed them. But a male ally who will stand up for you is different than one that will help you on the side. And you have to figure that out very quickly as a woman in those environments, who's who. There's people that'll be out to hurt you and sink you. There's going to be people.
that are out who will help you, but only in behind closed doors. And then there's people who will stand up for you in a room. And you'll encounter all three of those different people pretty much on every job site. And you got to figure out who those people are. And those are men that are in three different places in their journey, I think of.
handling these environments. And I think only the most secure and confident men are the ones that will stand up for you in a room full of other men. So being allies for women in the workplace, think is, comes back to this. It also contributes significantly to violence against women. In particular, the don't tell thing.
Speaker 2 (42:35.246)
It starts at a younger age and then it peaks in college type environments where we're competing a little bit. We're young, there's a lot of hormones happening, there's competition for dating and let's just be honest, physical relationships. Men will start encouraging other men to treat women badly and even physical violence.
Will you stand up and say, don't do that, stop it. Will you stand up and protect. Men are put in this position of, feel like I need to do the manly thing and protect, but I also don't want to get called out by my male colleagues. So the violence against women ends up happening because people are afraid to speak up or they'll say, Hey, I don't know. Maybe you shouldn't do that.
and say, just shut up, don't worry about it, it's fine.
Yeah. The male tribalism of go with the leader can be very screwed up on that. I don't pretend to fully understand anything to do with that. What incites violence or what causes it. But I know that men not standing up against other men more often, men standing up against other men more often will be better. I was going out to a party at college and this guy who was like six, four, tatted up.
must very muscular. saw every title in the gym, he was to live there was standing head and shoulders above this very small woman and backing her down into the corner of this parking lot that we were walking by on the way to some house party at college. And I don't know if it was the fact that I'd had a beer in my dorm and or what, but I walked over and I was like, Hey, is everything okay here? This doesn't look like a good situation. And she was, and he was like, no, it's fine. Go away. was like,
Speaker 1 (44:36.974)
All I'll let her say that. And then I was starting to look at this guy turned towards me. I'm 160 pounds wet. This man would have balled me up like a cocaine and thrown me. And then two campus police officers showed up behind me and were like, Hey, walk away. And I was like, okay, cool. I don't have to get the shit kicked out of me. I would say the positive masculinity involves standing up for those who can't stand up for themselves. I think that being a protector of anyone who
is being subjected to physical violence. Stopping physical violence is a big part of what it means to me to be a man. And I think that's positive. think that's one of the things that I will take away from the things I've learned as I've grown up that, know, anyone fighting somebody that has no right to wallop on somebody that they're vastly superior over just because they're superior over them. That's unacceptable. That's not a man's skill and behavior. Using your strength.
as a tool when it's not a fair fight, when it's this so unequal contest is immasculine, is the anti-menaceful behavior.
Yeah, absolutely. So in the workplace, looks like excluding people who don't meet the code, which includes women most of the time, it can result in some seriously dysfunctional workplaces. One of the things that I've always found extraordinary about men and construction, I've actually seen this happen on construction sites before, and I've even experienced it from a project manager that I worked with that
It is the, we get in a physical confrontation and then later we're going to go have a beer. Men can do that in a way that I don't think women do. First of all, women don't usually get into physical confrontations, but whether it's a verbal fight or a physical fight, you don't see physical fights on job sites much anymore. When I first got into the industry, it was a weekly event. There was usually an iron worker, sprinkler fitter.
Speaker 2 (46:46.89)
Somebody would tick off somebody else and there would be a fist fight on the job site. And then those guys are having a beer later. These days it's usually more like a, shouting match or toe to toe, nose to nose kind of a situation. I do still see that happen. Not infrequently on job sites, especially high pressure job sites. And I even had a project manager that I worked with for a while.
I was the subcontractor, they were the GC, and he used to scream at me every couple of days. He'd spend 20 minutes screaming at me. And then he'd be like, let's go have breakfast.
And I think that there's this thing with men that doing the easy confrontation where, whether that's physical or shouting relieves so much of the other stress that has led to that moment, whether it be personal stuff or a grudge that was long held and never talked about. The euphoria of that being over and then being able to just, God, I was, we shouldn't have been fighting at all.
Let's go have a beer. It's an apology. That's what that beer is. Oh, that was six months of therapy that those men just went through together. the of the progress of that is the beer that they share. Okay. I'll tell another stupid story here. I live with a big house of guys when I got out of college and I was not yet aware of, I'd never boxed or anything before. I was not aware of what it really would mean to get in a real fight with somebody.
And you do the male posturing thing. can give him a fight. could do whatever. And somebody who had actually had some boxing experience, the lid in the house, like, okay, let's go see what that's like. And he possibly once hard with a big blow. And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, I'm done. I don't need to do this. And that was the last time I ever thought about being able to win a fight in theory. I was like, no, okay. was just trying to be one of the guys trying to be cool, trying to be like.
Speaker 1 (48:53.495)
And we had a beer afterwards and he's, you get it now. This is cool. And it was a growth moment.
I think that if I had that kind of an experience when I was in the fifth grade, I would have understood what fighting means and why it's not the right way to resolve our problems. And that it is an easy out yelling, screaming, threatening to throw somebody off a roof that happened at one of my job sites. It's the easy thing. doesn't require thought. And men just get emotionally exhausted, which is not the masculine thing to say about what's really going on there, but they're just so done with all of the drama that's building up to that.
conflict, but they're like, just, can't even process this anymore. The only way I can process it is physically, I just need to go hit something. whether that needs to be the boxing punching bag in your basement, or it needs to be you finding a way to control your emotions and solve things in a more productive way. We can't afford to have people fighting on job sites. There's no profit in it. We don't have the time for men.
work.
Speaker 1 (49:59.438)
on job sites to let issues build that much to play these catty games of you don't give that crew the good tools today. Cause that, guy's pissing me off and that builds to some physical confrontation. There, just no profit in that. And when it comes down to it, we're all in business to make a profit. We're all in business to be more productive, to go home with a little bit more money in our pockets safely and be with our families. That's, there's no room for it in the modern world.
Yeah. And I think you bring up a really important point about needing a relief valve, right? You got to blow off steam every once in a while because we all get mad, we all get frustrated and you need a way to get that out. That isn't a fist fight or throwing somebody off of the roof. Highly recommend Krog McGough or anybody who hasn't tried that. did Krog McGough for a few years and I experienced the same thing, by the way, when I get very frustrated and I get very angry.
I want to hit something too. And I'll say things that are ridiculous. Like I'm going to, I'm going to take you out into the parking lot. I'm going to knock you out. Of course I'm not going to do that. I'm five foot tall.
There's nobody I'm knocking out. Okay. Although I did learn how to punch very effectively in Krav Maga. That's not happening. It's never happened. It's never going to happen. It's just a, like you said, it's an easy button. It's I'm frustrated and I feel like this will make me feel better. Maybe it'll make me feel better. Maybe it won't. You would not feel better hitting another person, but people punch walls, people punch punching bags, whatever it is. So finding a healthy outlet for that frustration is a good thing.
I think there's a lot of men that go along to get along. There's an awful lot of men that I would say I know many men who are the go along to get along kind of guys. They don't really think that way. They don't really feel that way, but they're not going to argue with the people that are doing and saying the toxic things. I have another apprentice experience to share. We had this one apprentice, so this was a little different situation.
Speaker 2 (52:11.746)
We'd known this kid forever. We worked with his mom and he, after he got out of high school, he got into the apprenticeship and I got him on my project when he was really new apprentice and sweet, gentle, kind, he's a big kid, but sweet, gentle, kind, quiet. And I thought, no, not another one. This is going to be a problem because he's too much like the other one that
And I thought, God, please you guys don't be mean to this kid. And I don't know, I can't pinpoint exactly what the difference was. Maybe it's because everybody knew his mom and she was well liked and well respected. And maybe that had to do with them not ostracizing him and treating him badly. But I watched as this young man tried so hard to fit in and when the guys would talk the way they talk.
He would blush. And I could see that he was uncomfortable and I could see that this was, but he wasn't saying anything. And then every once this was, I still think this is the cutest thing. And I told his mom about it later because I just thought it was hilarious. Every once in a while he'd throw out a swear word because as we know in construction people, it's potty melt central, Especially commercial construction, I think.
There's different sectors that maybe it's not as true, but in commercial construction where our trailer, the air is a little blue in the trailers and around the job site. And every once in a while he'd say a swear word, nothing really bad, but he would say it and he'd blush as soon as he said it. It was the cutest thing because you could tell he was not raised talking like that. And it was embarrassing him to do it, but he was trying so hard to fit in.
He got through it all, very likable young man and he's still on the trade and doing great.
Speaker 2 (54:12.494)
But the go along to get along, I think there's an awful lot of guys that do that. And I completely understand women have to do it too. In the male dominated environments, I can raise my hand and say, did I go along to get along? I sure did. I worried a lot about how I presented myself in these environments. I was very concerned about not looking too feminine. Not that I'm a super big girly girl anyway, but
I wore very little makeup, certainly nothing as bold as lipstick or anything like that. Not that I'm a lipstick girl anyway. Jeans, t-shirt. I even, remember our labor superintendent saying to me one time, you look like a field hand. I said, okay, well, that's fine with me. I was fitting in and my reasons were different. I wanted to be.
accepted and respected for my brains and for my abilities. And I didn't want people focusing on the fact that I was a female and that I was different than other people. So I think there's plenty of men that have to do the same thing. They have to adapt and try to fit in. And that's just human, the human condition. So what do we do to fix it?
How do we fix this? How do we work on this as a society? I think you've got some ideas here, Brad.
Yeah, I think
Speaker 1 (55:52.206)
What you alluded to earlier really strikes a chord with me, the idea of standing up in that room saying, Hey, this is not okay. They get alone to go along guys need to voice an opinion. I think probably always the right thing to say something right as something's happening, but in a professional environment, maybe due to the hierarchies, due to the things that go on in business, due to economic principles of things. If somebody who you work for is doing things that are
toxic, that are the wrong thing for the in masculine way. Pull them aside later and be like, Hey, I didn't think that was the right move to go with it. That's not a, that's not a right way to treat that person. Something along those lines. That's a hard conversation to have with somebody. I don't know. I'm almost going back on that as it comes out of my list, because it's especially hard if you're a young junior male employee and you see a man that you work with who they're signing your paycheck, doing something that's, that's wrong and trying to call them out on it. That's a very fraught.
very risky conversation.
takes a lot of courage.
It does. One of my greatest regrets in life is not having those guts to have that kind of faith in somebody when they were treating somebody badly. And I was right there and I should have raised my voice and said, Hey, I think this is well, I think what you're doing is not the right way to go about this. So in your personal life, when there's toxic masculinity going on and guys are just being guys or whatever it is, stand up and say, I think this is well, think find a way to say it. That's not.
Speaker 1 (57:22.88)
Mean for the sake of being mean, find a way to say it's constructive, but say what you mean. Don't just let things go when your values are being compromised. Don't allow your values to be compromised. That's one. If there's stuff going on that you can't abide and that you can't solve, leave the situation. Find other people to be around. Find another company to work for if it's a toxic, neon environment. I had a friend who told me.
They were sitting in a trailer with a superintendent who said, that's why women don't belong in this industry. We'll fuck everything up. And that person left the company over that person's comment and a few other issues with that company. So it's a big economy out there. It's a short street. feels like. Company you're working for me to the only company in the world that'll give you a paycheck when you're in it, when you're behind on things and you're in a tough spot. But when the opportunity avails itself, find a way to find a better environment. Don't belittle people who.
are not fitting the masculine stereotype in that moment. Bring other men with you. If somebody is truly having a weakness of character, don't tell them to man up. Don't tell them to rub some dirt in it. Say, Hey, what you're going through is hard, but this is what the moment calls for. What can we do to get you here? What can we do to push you to the next level? Because what you're doing now isn't cutting it.
It's not about refraining from doing the things that some masculine behaviors can improve upon. It's about finding ways to do it that aren't going to create this toxic environment in my opinion.
I think everybody can reflect on what are they doing on a daily basis? What are they saying on a daily basis? I sat and listened to a conversation between two men the other day that was making me very uncomfortable. Then they were covering it up with jokes and laughing and ha, but then they were saying, that was really fucked up. But then they were participating in it too.
Speaker 2 (59:34.368)
So it's okay. get that you're acknowledging that it was really screwed up and that's great. That's a good thing, but let's, let's just not participate or let's be bold and courageous enough to say, no, that's not okay. And that's harder. And I think I said in one of our previous cast, that's how that it's the right thing to do is that it's a really hard thing to do.
That's how, if you're just like, Ooh, I'm really uncomfortable. I don't know if I, that's courage and that's always the right thing to do, but it's not always the comfortable or the easy thing to do. So find some more secure men to hang out with. You've said it earlier. If people that you are around are constantly.
toxic and whatever ways that are toxic, whether it's toxic masculinity or just being unsupportive. Should I have been more supportive of that poor man that was breaking down, telling me about all these terrible things happening in his marriage? Should I have done something different? Yeah, I've thought about it many times. I wish I could go back to that day and be a better leader and be a better person and just have said, wow.
Something even more supportive. just, I don't know that I really said anything. I think I listened and just, I don't think I said anything very supportive or said, gosh, do you need a few days off? How do I help you? How can I support you? So just looking at our own behavior and what we're doing, what we're saying, how we're presenting, do I certainly catch myself doing and saying things sometimes that I'm like, that wasn't it?
That's not what I should have said. Stopping those thoughts before they leave your head and come out of your mouth. It's challenging.
Speaker 1 (01:01:36.504)
But it's so important. think that's a really good point, When I think about the most masculine men that I have seen as role models, they're often the quietest men in the room. My dad tells a story of my grandfather who ex army could shoot the bullseye on a target 150 yards away up until the last years of his life. Great golfer, respected his community.
We're all call a man man. He was a very quiet individual and he wasn't boastful. wasn't proud. He wasn't loud, but whenever he spoke, people listen because they knew whatever he was going to say. We're to have something worth listening to.
There's a lot of bravado. There's a lot of, especially in my generation's culture, aura around these men who brag and wear fancy watches and drive expensive flashy cars and are constantly trying to prove themselves masculine. think true masculinity, positive masculinity is this quiet matter of fact thing that everybody gets. It's anybody who has to prove that they're a man.
It's going down the wrong path. They're not doing it the right way. are purporting a toxic version of something that's beautiful, something that's meaningful and real.
And it's secure. can tell you from a female point of view, a man who's secure in himself and confident in himself is, I can't imagine being with a man that wasn't. In fact, I will not tolerate. When I was single, jealousy, possessiveness, all that kind of stuff, that's not attractive at all. In fact, it's for me, it's the opposite. I'm very fortunate. My husband's probably the most secure man I've ever met.
Speaker 2 (01:03:33.174)
He just doesn't have any of that stuff in him, thankfully. And I guess that would be my statement to men is if you're doing these things and you're acting this way because you think that women find it attractive, I'm going to tell you that most women do not. There's probably some women that do, but most women do not. So that's not a reason.
One of the themes is sustainability, flexing on women, showing off with these fancy things. It's not sustainable strategy. It's going to be peacock flash in the pan moment where you're going to attract a lot of attention for five seconds. And then what's going to be left after that. The image we're going after those guys, that behavior are not the one, the people, shouldn't say that the women, it's anybody who's going after that flashy bravado, look at me, pick me attention, seeking behavior.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04:28.312)
That's not a lasting thing.
Yeah, it's like the same as the women that, that spend so much time on their looks. Looks fade. What's in, what's inside is what matters. And that's true for men and women. It's what's inside that matters. It's who you are that matters. Not all the fluffy stuff on the outside that eventually you'll work your way through that as you get to know somebody. So we want to focus on the positive masculinity.
Refrain from the toxic stuff, take responsibility for your own statements, actions, participation or non-participation. And let's just get back to work.
Yeah, that is build something thing to do get back to work.
Get back to work. Let's go build something. Forget the rest of this nonsense. Thank you guys so much for joining us today. This was a tough little icky topic, right? Sometimes. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next time.
