Speaker 2 (00:08.994)
Good morning and welcome to Management Under Construction. I'm Dee Davis.
And I'm Brad Wyatt and we are joined this morning by Bryce Bass who's here to talk about the recruiting aspect of the construction world. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us, Bryce.
Yeah, I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
This is a super hot topic right now. There are so many people out there. All you have to do is go and look on LinkedIn right now and there's conversations about the job market 24-7. I don't know what is happening out there. Bryce is going to help us understand that a little bit today. But if you are not working with a professional recruiter, I think it's a good idea to look at that. I know my personal experience working with professional recruiters has been mixed.
I've had some recruiters that have ghosted me. I've had recruiters that didn't really follow through. And then I've had some really great recruiters who really went the extra mile and helped me get that next job. How about you, Brad? What's been your experience?
Speaker 3 (01:12.14)
Yeah, I've had nothing but good experiences with recruiters in my past. I haven't had that many experiences with them, but every time I have, it's always been a great conversation about what are you looking for out of your career? What skills do have to offer right now? What kind of work-life balance do you need? And then there's always been great options out there. The one good thing about our industry, in my experience at least, has been that it's an understaffed industry, especially from the professional side. getting a job that works and fits with my life.
has been very easy with professional recruiters in the past.
Yeah, right now there's tons of anxiety out there. There seems to be very low level of communication, tons of frustration on the job seeker side, crazy stories that I'm hearing out there from people on a day to day basis. Bryce, what is your observation about what's going on out there?
Yeah, I think you're right, Dan. Brad, I'm glad you've had really good experiences with recruiters. Do you? think most people can say it's been a mixed bag for them. There's good and bad recruiters out there for sure, but I think that the job market is so tight for EC. I read the Associated General Contractors of America said 85 % of construction firms reported difficulty filling open positions and 69 % of AE firms said the same thing. So there's definitely a shortage of time.
firms are having a hard time attracting and retaining top talent. But from the job seekers perspective, I think it's like the Wild West. There's lots of jobs online. They're applying. They're not hearing back. They were going through rounds and rounds of interviews and then the positions put on hold or they're ghosted. I hear job seekers are. It's taking nine months to 12 months to even find a new role and that's across industries. But I think that's where a recruiter really comes into play because.
Speaker 1 (03:03.086)
recruiters know about positions that aren't posted online and they're going to bat for you. I say a recruiter is very much like a real estate agent. They don't get paid unless you get the job, so they're trying very hard to find you a job.
That's a really good line to draw. is exactly a recruiter is your representative. They're going to interview you. They're going to figure out your strengths and weaknesses. They know the culture. There's ongoing relationships with all these different companies that you guys represent. And they know the culture of the company. They know what kind of people are placed in that company already. And they could be a huge asset to you to just shortcut that whole process. And that ridiculous thing that is happening online and it's been going on for years.
of applying for the online advertised position that may or may not even be real. It's all managed by bots and not real people. My horror story is years ago, I'm a consultant now, but years ago I applied for a job online. It was a high level position that I was applying for. It took me four hours to fill out all the stuff online.
that was required for this job application. It was like essay questions. It wasn't a normal, here's all my details process. It was like, you had to fill out all these essay questions and practically write a paper, which I did not expect to be doing. I spent hours and hours on this thing, submitted it, crickets, never heard a word.
And that's what job seekers are going through out there, just slupping through the internet, trying to find a job right now. So we want to help them find a better way. Bryce, can you give us some more detail about your background? Like how did you get in this industry? What kind of skills are required to do what you do?
Speaker 1 (04:56.798)
I started off with a small A &E recruiting firm, worked for them for 12 years. I was living in Florida when I my MBA and I met a friend at school because I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I don't suggest going to get an MBA when you don't know what you want to do. But there I was. So a friend said, you should do this. I think you'd be great at it. My now husband is in the same industry. He's an architect. So you should try it. Recruiting is basically sales.
It's a lot like matchmaking, matching the right candidate to the right client. So it's fun and it's challenging. But if I think anybody who's good at sales could be good at recruiting or anyone who likes working with people would make a good recruiter. We have people like I have an MBA, but we have people who didn't even go to school who work for us and they can still be a great recruiter. I worked for a small firm for 12 years.
Really loved it, but with this small company, like many people during COVID, I thought about what was next for me and what I wanted to do and decided it was time to make a change. So started interviewing and then one of my colleagues and I, he and I were always vying for the number one spot at the company. Sometimes, some years it was him, some years it was me. So we started talking about joining forces and starting Career Collective and how we could be really different than the company we came from.
The company we came from had great recruiters, but no upward mobility. The culture was really lacking. It was a very dog-eat-dog world as sales can be. You think of that old movie, Boiler Room, where they're on the floor and they're all yelling at each other. That was my old company. So we wanted to do things differently at Career Collective, and I think we have. We're three years in. We have 18 people in office in Raleigh and office in Tampa.
And it's going well. I think it's because we put our people first and then they do that with their candidates and with their clients. And it's really about building those relationships because we've got to be able to trust each other. The candidates clients need to be able to trust us and we need to be able to trust them because there are shady things that go on the candidate and client side as well. And so we try to work through those.
Speaker 2 (07:09.676)
It sounds like a great culture that you've built at Career Collective. That's great. Over the course of your career, how have you stood out from your competitors?
I think one of the big things is we're niche. So that helps. know the industry really well. But even when I was a recruiter and I was in that role, I had clients that I really grew to love. And so when I came to Kerr Collective, they sought me out. A lot of them came with me. But that was because I called them every 30 days. So whether they had a job opening or not, or they weren't hiring.
Maybe I was annoying, but I would literally call them every month like hey, how are things going? Just checking in. I know you said you weren't hiring, but I want to stay in touch and what that did for me is maybe a year later when they were hiring. They're like you were the most persistent and you didn't give up and you kept calling us so then they would call me and give me the job and once. At Career Collective when I was ready to hand over some of my clients. To our recruiters.
I was like, gosh, it was really, it was touching and it was hard to do. was bittersweet because I'm like, I've worked with some of these clients for 10 plus years. I've had lunch with them. We've done video calls. I have stopped by to see them when I'm like going through their city, whatever it may be. Some of them felt this is my grandpa or this is my friend. And so turning them over. But I think it's really just building those relationships with your candidate and your client.
You bring up a very interesting part of anybody's career trajectory that I think is really interesting to talk about if we can. Going from being that individual contributor, somebody making the relationship yourself, somebody pitching the sale, somebody pitching yourself to a manager, somebody leading a group of people, somebody managing a company is an incredibly difficult transition to make. Do you think that that was a natural transition for you? Do you think that your MBA helped you make that transition or do you think there were
Speaker 3 (09:10.69)
bumps along the way that you had to learn as you went.
Yeah, Brad, that is such a point because there were lots of bumps along the way and that was one of the biggest challenges starting a business and getting financing like that's really tough. But going from being an individual contributor to then leading a team was really hard and it was establishing boundaries along the way. Me and my business partner compliment each other really well, but we're very different and what he liked in leadership might have been a different style from mine. So we had to figure out.
how we were showing up as leaders, what made the most sense for us, establishing those boundaries and really leading by example because we're very much still in the business. We're still calling candidates, calling clients. So they got to hear us on the phone. So it was never like, do as I say, not as I do, because they got to see us really doing the job. And we were able to tell them, this is what made us successful. But then dealing with those employee issues is like a whole nother thing.
Luckily, we haven't had a ton of issues because we have a really good culture, but everybody, if you're bringing your whole self to work, you've got issues at home that are going to show up at work and it's messy because you're dealing with people. But it's been good. Definitely bumps along the way though.
Learning by doing that's familiar to all of us in the construction industry. Very cool price. Very cool.
Speaker 2 (10:33.142)
Yeah, we've had several episodes about just the people stuff in business and what that's like and working parents and employee employer relationships and those kinds of things. And then we just recently actually tomorrow morning our episode on to get an MBA or not to get an MBA is going to air that episode mentions exactly what you said. Don't go get an MBA if you don't know what you want to do. That was one of the points.
In that episode. Perfect. I swear we didn't coach her to say that. It's good to know that we're on target with all of our stuff. Brad, do you want to go ahead and ask Bryce the next couple of questions? Yep.
Sure, so we'd love to hear more about what the recruiter employer relationship is like when you are pitching yourself as a recruiter to a company. What are you advocating for on their behalf? What are what are the points of sale that make you a value add to their organization?
Yeah, we hope that the client is really looking for a recruiting partner, but that's not always the case. Sometimes it's just that we have a great candidate and they need this candidate and that is it. Like they just want to hire this civil engineer we've sent over. We'll sometimes send over a blind resume if we see they have an Indeed posting or a job out there or just if it's a tough area, they're in Idaho, then.
and we see they're in that market, we'll send the resume and establish a relationship from there. But really, we like it to be a true partnership where they can tell us all about their company, their benefits, the perks to working there. So then when we're talking to a candidate, we can really help sell the opportunity. And that's why I think it's nice to be able to do a video call with the client so you can get to know them.
Speaker 1 (12:20.568)
It's great to be able to go to their office in person, but that's not always going to happen. So the more we can know so we can sell it to the candidate, the better. Because most candidates, with the labor shortage, they've got multiple interviews, they've got multiple offers. And I think it starts with planting the seed in the very beginning, which is why we want to create that true partnership. Because it's so hard to change someone's mind once it's already made up. So if we can plant those seeds from the beginning, it makes it a lot easier. But we really help.
look for the candidates, we'll help with the interview process with we interview the candidate and then once they interview with the client we will debrief them, see how it went, get their feedback, see where else they're interviewing, where they're at in the stage, interview stage or process because oftentimes the timing just doesn't line up. Dee, if you have an offer
And then we're still setting up interviews. Your offer may expire. Maybe you can get an extension, but maybe not. So at some point you're to have to make some hard decisions. Do I want to keep interviewing and forego this offer or am I ready to take it and cancel everything else? And so those are some of the conversations we have on a daily basis.
very interesting. so from the employer standpoint, when they're considering how they want to grow, if they're saying, okay, we need to hire people, this is the next step. What are they thinking about when they decide whether to use a recruiter or to try to promote internally or to pitch for candidates on their own? What is their thought process? Do you think?
Yeah, I think it depends on the size of the firm, but I think a lot of times they're looking at their backlog. Do we have enough work to hire somebody? Do we have someone internally who can do the job? Is there someone we can promote or can we ship something around to make this work without having to go outside? And if not, maybe they just want a couple of new projects and they're like, nope, we've got to hire two to three people immediately.
Speaker 1 (14:15.042)
then I really think it makes sense to hire or reach out to your recruiter because we can start sending resumes that same day. Hopefully we have someone on hand. If not, we can really start looking for them immediately to try to get it filled. And again, I say it depends on the size of the firm because if they don't have a full TA team and recruiter that works for them internally, or maybe they do, but they're already working on 300 open positions, then they need to reach out to us.
What does TA mean?
talent acquisition. Yeah.
Thank you.
Mmm, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:52.184)
Sorry, one of those industry buzzy words that if you don't work in that piece of it, that makes sense. But yeah, I was like, what does TA mean?
I can't even imagine a company that have three and that's just to show how much our industry ebbs and flows. Certain firms may need to hire in such great quantities so rapidly that they would need to fill that way. That's really fascinating. So when it comes to the cost structure that you're presenting to your clients and to the people that you're your candidates as well, is there industry standard that you work by or is there a competitive feature to the way that you offer your pricing? How does that look?
Yeah, so it's a free service for the candidate, but our clients sign an agreement before we set up an interview and the fee is typically anywhere between 20 to 30%. I would say 25 is pretty standard. You'll of course have some firms who want 18 % and some who sign at 30. We don't go under 20. Like I said, we tried to work 25 to 30 % and then we offer a guarantee on the candidate. So for some reason they don't work out. We can do a free replacement.
Or we offer a refund depending on how long the candidates been there. Of course, we've got a contract we stick by, but we try to work. We're working for our clients. We want to get someone good in there. We want to have it work out so we do as much due diligence on the front end as possible. So when the candidates there, hopefully everything is going smoothly, but we follow up once they've started because a lot of times the candidate will tell us things that they're not going to tell the client.
So then we can call the client and say, hey, they're wondering about this or onboarding doesn't seem to be going too well, what's going on? And then they'll say, my gosh, we've got someone out on maternity leave and this happened and that happened, but we'll give them extra attention. it's just nice for us to be able to hear directly from the candidate so we can pass that along. So hopefully you can save the relationship and things do go smoothly.
Speaker 3 (16:49.004)
A lot of facilitation.
The advantage for the employer then becomes that you're doing a lot of the upfront screening and interviewing so that by the time the candidate gets to the employer, the likelihood of a good match is very high.
Yeah, exactly. And we have told clients and this happens all the time too. Hey, I don't think this is the right person because we have seen how they've acted towards us or we found something out or they weren't being truthful. Then it's better for us just to go to the client. Say, look, I'd rather just keep looking for someone like in the ultimately at your call, but I wouldn't hire this person. Of course we want to make the match and get the placement, but I'd rather be honest and find them someone who is going to work than just.
try to fill a slot.
This isn't the right house for you. Let's keep looking.
Speaker 1 (17:42.081)
Exactly.
You're old.
Later on, we're going to dive into what's been happening with AI and that form of interviewing in next in the last couple of years here. But in the past 15 years, what has changed drastically about your business? If anything, has it been influenced by technology? Has it been influenced by the pace of the industry or just attitudes?
Yeah, I think in the past when I first started, we would get list of people who had just passed their PE or people who been at conferences and we would just call them. We were just cold call and we were making 50 to 100 calls a day depending on where you work, leaving lots of voicemails, sending lots of emails. So that's been a big shift. Of course now it's really hard to just buy a list that you can call off of, number one.
Speaker 1 (18:33.088)
Number two, a lot of people have spam blockers or if they don't know the caller, it'll go straight to voicemail. People don't listen to their voicemails. So we're finding now a lot less calls, more text and emails to candidates. LinkedIn is really big. When I was recruiting initially, Indeed was big, CareerBuilder, Monster. No one uses CareerBuilder or Monster too much in our industry anymore, at least within AEC.
Same with ZipRecruiter, everybody's on LinkedIn for the most part. We do use Indeed, but it has changed since I was recruiting 10 years ago. So a lot of shifts there. More, like I said, more texting, and then with clients, more video calls, which is really nice because if I've talked to Brad for 10 years on the phone, it's nice to see his face.
It's funny, I think a lot of people my age feel that video calls are convenient and are a great way to see somebody's face without needing to pick up. A lot of people my age feel that phones are intimidating and don't want to take a phone call, but we're happy to do the face to face thing. People of an older generation thinking that video calls are a poor substitute for in person. And I get that argument, but I also think the convenience of being able to do a video call when you're thousands of miles away or when you're in an inconvenient position is
Very valuable.
Okay, think it's interesting that you the younger generation as more scared of calls.
Speaker 3 (20:01.132)
Yeah, people my age don't want to up the phone. They're like, my God, somebody's calling me on the phone. I don't want no, just text me. What are you doing?
Someone must be dead or they're trying to sell me something.
Exactly. We just that that's how my generation was and it's funny because when I came into the business when I was 21 My boss said pick up phone and start dialing get out there and make relationship with people on the phone because that's how this business works I was like, okay, and I did it and everyone else my age was like boy You're really good on the phone. I've been doing it for a long time I've been figuring out how to do it by making mistakes by hitting those bumps in the road and getting around them It's it's a skill. I'm happy to have even though it's maybe
a dated skill.
I think there's something to be said to building up that resilience for rejection because when you're cold calling or door knocking, people are going to hang up on you. People are going to yell at you. You're going to get some wrong numbers, but if you can just keep moving. I say collect the nose to get to the yes, so you just have to keep going.
Speaker 3 (21:02.496)
Exactly. It's a it can be brutal. It can be you have to tell yourself not to take it personally. And which is very hard to do when you get rejected because it says, what did I say? That's not it. That's what's going on.
Yeah, they could have just been having a bad day.
Yeah, exactly. So let's dive into the details of the ACE employment market. One of the things that we observed, Dee and I, before this call was that since COVID, it seems like everyone is hiring, but also somehow no one's hiring. It takes forever to fill positions, but people are still always hiring. Are there ghost positions out there where people are posting a job that doesn't really exist? What is your sense since the pandemic about where the market has gone and what's really
what people are up to.
Yeah, I think two really nice things that came out of COVID was one, the AEC industry moved to remote work and hybrid work, which I thought would never happen. So that was really great. And then number two, people were hiring so quickly. Clients would do a one video interview or one phone interview and make an offer. And that's because a lot of times, depending on what state they were in, candidates couldn't come in person. And now we're back to
Speaker 1 (22:15.382)
A lot of clients want to do two to three to four interviews.
Yeah, I've definitely seen that happening. And I'm hearing about people that have done five, six, seven interviews and then get a, sorry, you're overqualified or sorry. Some of the, I'm going to just say excuses that are given to people out there looking in the job market are outrageous. So you go through all these interviews and then they say, you're overqualified. Or they go through all the interviews and they provide a low ball offer or they just.
Say something that just doesn't make any sense. This is something that has been sticking in my craw ever since COVID started and people started really getting back to work is that everybody's hiring, but nobody's hiring. Everybody's hiring. Every contractor I know, every engineering firm I know is hiring, but people are out of work for months at a time. How can those, both of those things be true? Are you really hiring?
Or are you just saying you're hiring or are you really unreasonably dragging out the hiring process and taking forever? Because we all know that the good candidates are not going to wait for you.
One problem I see is a client will want an eight year PE with great job stability and it's okay. Every company across the US wants that same candidate. So if you find one, are you making a reasonable offer or an offer that's going to get them in the door? Are you offering flexibility to win that candidate over? And if not,
Speaker 1 (23:52.942)
And if you have been looking for over a year for this candidate and you can't find them and you're turning away work because they say 55 % of any firms are turning away work due to staffing constraints. It's like how can you be more open minded? Can you promote that someone within? Can you find maybe an EIT who can move up with the company? Or maybe this person has.
not have the greatest job stability, but they have reasons why. Are you willing to take a chance on them? It's like, how can you think outside the box? Again, I go back to my dating metaphor because maybe you've got a laundry list of things you want from this person that you're going to date, but they only check four of those boxes. They could still be the right match. It's unreasonable expectations.
I
Speaker 3 (24:41.07)
Yeah, everyone wants to date, I don't know, Chris Hemsworth or Scarlett Johansson, Right. It's only one of those. I think you bring up a really interesting point about job stability. And I've never been on the hiring side, or at least in the few conversations I have, and it's been only as a cursory. Do you think this person is someone you'd work with, not would you hire them? I've never been in that room. But one of the things that people my age talk a lot about is jumping.
from job as a way of leveraging their salary up and up because they feel that they see people within their same company getting promoted ahead of them and feel that they're not being favored or they think that the company doesn't value any of their employees and that they can get a better salary somewhere else. When it comes to job stability, how big of an impact is that track record of jumping ship every two to three years or less when it comes to hiring on somebody or
our company's figuring out that if we don't promote and give bigger salary raises, that's just going to be a fact of life. And we need to factor that into all of our decisions.
Yeah, it makes a huge impact when it comes to working through a recruiter. And we tell our recruiters this too. Our clients are not going to pay us $20,000 or whatever it may be to hire someone that they think is going to leave. It's a huge investment of their time and their money. So at least from a recruiter standpoint, they're not going to hire a candidate who has had a new job every one to two years.
I do following all the trends of what's being said and Brad you're spot on because I would say for the last couple of years they're like if you want they whoever writes all these articles is saying you must change jobs to get a promotion or to get the money that you're looking for. And if you don't like after years and years you've forgotten all the salary that you could have had if you switch jobs. And now just recently like in the last week I'm seeing articles that they stay put.
Speaker 1 (26:42.702)
It's no longer good to move jobs here to get that salary increase you're looking for. So it's so funny how the trends change, but our clients want stability. They want someone who's going to grow with them. Of course you can't promise that, but on the client side, one way to, I think, trying to make sure that happens is to offer a career growth and let these candidates know like what the next step is. Because many times candidates will leave because they feel like there's no.
path to growth and they don't see themselves going anywhere within the company and so then they start looking outside. But if they come to us and say, they're just looking for more money, I say, and our recruiters are trained to do this as well. Okay, let's take a pause. Why don't you go to your company now and ask for a raise before we start this process? Because we're gonna send your resume out to all of our clients, we're gonna get interviews set up.
and we don't wanna start setting these up, only for you to interview, get offers, and then take it back to your company and get a counter offer. So just go ask for the raise, because if you wait for the counter offer, one, now your company knows you're unhappy, they know you're looking, and two, they can't afford to let you go, but now there's some mistrust there, and so they're gonna be looking to replace you. And so they might throw a counter offer at you once,
But then I find a lot of times those same candidates six months to a year later, they're looking again. Because what they wanted wasn't just more money, it was a promotion or a change culturally or whatever it may be. And they're like, yeah, so it's a stop gap for a while, but it doesn't solve the issue.
It's almost like being here, I would have to make more money or a lot of other things would have to change. And I've certainly been in this position of being so deep into whatever position I was in, situation I was in, where I just only thought, boy, if I could be making more money for life to suck this much for this to be this hard, then this would be OK. But it takes a holistic view, which is hard to say when bills are piling up or when life is happening. It's hard to have that perspective to look back and say,
Speaker 3 (28:54.86)
Yeah, there's other things that if they changed would make a lot of this work out for me.
Yeah, I will say it's very rare for a candidate to make a change for less money. I'm blown away in this job every day. It does happen sometimes. Like we recently had a candidate moving to a really large company and they offered him. I think he wanted 90. He probably would have taken 8085. They offered him 78 where like there's no way he's going to take it. This is crazy. He took the offer.
I was like, my gosh, this is probably the only time this year I will see this, but it was a great company, great reputation. And he liked what they did and was willing to take less knowing that this is when they do reviews, this is their bonus structure. So you can lean into some of those other things, but 99 % of candidates will say money's not the big thing, but if you give them the same or less, they're turning it down because of money.
I've written an article a few years back about this very topic of why people leave and we hear this stuff all the time. Well, people leave, they don't just leave because of money, leave because of culture, they leave because they have a bad boss, they leave because of lots and lots of different things. And statistically, when somebody does the process that you described, they go get another offer and then they take it to their boss and they say, me more money or I'm leaving, match it or I'm leaving.
that person statistically will stay less than a year because you're right, you nailed it. The reason that they're leaving is not money. It's maybe money is a piece of it, but it's not the fix. The fix is I need better leadership. I need a better culture. I need more responsibility. I need the ability to move up. I remember being in a company where I just came to the conclusion that somebody was going to have to retire or die for me to get a promotion. had gone as far as I could go.
Speaker 2 (30:51.482)
And there was no opportunity available to me in that company. And I wasn't willing to wait another five or 10 years for the next step. There's no way it is too long. Let's talk about when a candidate gets feedback from a hiring company back to the whole conversation of you've been to some interviews when you get feedback, like you're overqualified or something. What does that really mean? I don't.
know if I buy overqualified as being a legitimate thing because wouldn't you be able to tell that just by looking at the resume? So what's really going on there and what should a candidate do about that?
Yeah, I think take the feedback and try to make changes. I don't hear overqualified a ton. I will when I submit the resume. this person has too much experience. We need a doer. We need someone who's going to be hands on. This person is probably wanting to do more client facing work or project management, but typically they can tell from the resume. Now sometimes it will take a first interview where they can.
Suss out some of these things and then they say that's not going to be a fit. I did recently have a candidate interview with a local A &E firm here in Raleigh and candidate had his PE. Good candidate, kind of soft spoken, but when it came down to it, they wanted a candidate who was really passionate about public work and working for a multidisciplinary firm. And he told them the reason he was looking was for more money and I wanted.
I was just like, my gosh, no, why did you say that? Even if you are looking for more money, give a better reason. Don't just say it's just the money. so we still come up against stuff like that and he's got another interview with another one of our clients this week and so I sent him the clients feedback. I'm like, look, we I'm happy to rehearse this with you. We can workshop this, but we can't say I just want more money.
Speaker 1 (32:53.134)
It's just, it's not a valid reason. That's not what the client wants to hear.
Yeah, there's a little bit of politicking there that has to be done when you're the one looking for the job. And there's something to be said for honesty and for the rightness. You got to give the guy some points for that. if that truly is their only motivation, but there's a little bit of salesmanship there where yes, that is not the answer any employer is ever going to want to hear. Because what they really hear when they hear that is the minute somebody dangles another dollar in front of your face, you're going to be gone.
Exactly. That's what they're hearing. And they don't want to hear that because that's not what they're looking for. It costs two to three times somebody's salary to replace them. So from an employer standpoint, you want somebody that's going to stick around for a little bit. And we did another cast where we talked about that whole job hopping thing. And when I was trained to review resumes and interview people many moons ago, a tenure of less than five years was considered job hopping.
And as a negative and really eight to 10 years plus people that didn't move around a lot were favored. The pendulum swung way the other way and it became normal for people to change jobs every one to three years. And now it's starting to come back to the middle, which is probably more reasonable. So that's really interesting how things change over time.
Yeah, and back to your point about the hiring process. Sometimes it's just more vetting needs to be done on the front end. If you're hiring a designer, give them a Revit test or ask to see some of their work. And sometimes a candidate can't show it because it's proprietary, but you can give them a Revit test or whatever the software is that you might be using because.
Speaker 1 (34:41.004)
The client wants to know that the candidate's quick in it, what they can do exactly. And that's not something we can do, but the client can. We can check references and culturally they may be a great fit, but I don't know how quickly they can mark up a design.
All right. And you get somebody like me who can legitimately say, do you know how to use Revit before? Yes, I have. Should I be out there promoting that I can use Revit? No, no, definitely not. That is not my area of expertise. Definitely vetting, especially the extreme technical skills. And a lot of times it will happen in interviews is that you'll just start asking people a bunch of technical questions and you can tell.
whether or not they can walk the walk based on their responses. I would fail that test or a rabbit question here. Some of the other things that we're seeing out there in the market is ghosting and no shows from both clients and candidates. I guess I've never been ghosted, but I've definitely shown up to an interview with somebody who clearly had never even looked at my resume and.
had no idea. They knew they were interviewing someone that day, but they didn't know who they were interviewing or what position they were interviewing for. So there's lack of preparedness on both sides. There's ghosting going on both sides. There's people accepting offers and then rejecting at the last minute. That's a little bit of a heated conversation because they'll accept the offer and then they'll get another better one after that. And what do you do? And there's lots of conversation about that.
starting and staying for a really short period of time measured in weeks. We already talked about the endless applications with no response. Any thoughts on all that stuff, Bryce?
Speaker 1 (36:29.442)
Yeah, a lot of thought. D, it's like you work in my industry. so let's start with the ghosting. I see this more on the candidate side than the client side. Typically, if a client isn't ready for the interview or forgot the candidates coming, they've missed an email or the client is just so busy that they somehow missed their calendar. It does happen and normally they apologize, but it's happened on the candidate side.
I think a lot of people do not like confrontation. So instead of just simply calling or even texting or emailing the recruiter and saying, I'm no longer interested or something's changed, I don't want to move forward. They just ghost, which blows my mind. I'm like a simple text or an email would be fantastic just to tell me why. But I think they don't want the recruiter or the client then calling them and trying to change their mind. So they just.
guest. So see that a lot.
Very bad method, by the way, any listeners. Yeah, don't do that. It's a reputation thing. Right. As you think that recruiter is going to remember your name later. You betcha.
Yeah, we mark you as a DNU. Do not use because we don't want to be ghosted. And then the industry is so small. If you make a name for yourself, it sticks with you. And we also have a saying at our company where like, that's a usual suspect. Like someone you see their resume all the time. Yeah, don't work with them because our clients have seen their resume a million times.
Speaker 2 (38:08.526)
There's a reason that you're seeing it out there all the time. It's just like when you're in the union and they send you back to the hall at the end of a job, there's no more work that you get on the list. There's people that chronically just live on the list. And if they're on the list all the time, there's a reason why those are not necessarily the people that you want on your project. There's a reason for that. So what about the accepting and rejecting at the last minute and all that?
yeah, so we see that too. Candidates will accept an offer because either they've interviewed with another company and that company hasn't come forward with an offer and maybe that one was their first choice. So sometimes we'll see a candidate who will accept and then we'll just take another offer. As the recruiter, we ask them to take their resume off of Indeed or LinkedIn or wherever it is or turn off their open to work because we know other recruiters will continue to contact them.
It's shady, yes, but I understand like you have to look out for your best interests. If you had this number one company we're waiting on, just be honest about it. Hey, I'm taking this offer because I feel like I'm going to lose out on it if I don't, but I'm still waiting for this other thing. We have candidates who will come to us and say I've accepted an offer, but I'm still looking. So I hate it for the client or that company, but we hear that a lot. And for the client.
Personally, if it's my client, I hate it because we found them the right person. They've started getting things ready for onboarding and then the candidate just decides to take another offer.
What would be your advice to the candidate that's really concerned about, Hey, I have an offer, but it's not, it's like picking a college, right? I have all these offers, but I don't have my number one. So my number one hasn't responded yet. It seems to me like I would then contact my recruiter and say, Hey, that's my number one choice over there. Can we prod them and tell them, Hey, I've got other offers like the car salesman. I've got somebody else that's really interested in this car.
Speaker 2 (40:12.59)
Are you going to make an offer or not? And if you're not, that's fine, but please communicate.
Yeah, and if it's our client, we for sure will do that. What we see a lot of times is we've gotten them an offer and they interviewed somewhere else on their own and they're still waiting. So then I would say, let's be honest with them. Let's ask our client for an extension so you don't forget the offer, but you haven't accepted yet. So let's see if we can get an extension there and then please go back to the company that you interviewed with on your own that you're telling me is your number one choice and tell them you have an offer.
That is going to expire. You prefer to work for them and let's see what they say. Let's see if they're going to make an offer or if they tell you it's going to be another month or they have no idea. And sometimes that's like they're interviewing with Amazon or Tesla or someone else. These huge companies that we don't work with, but their process is so long and I don't know if they're ever going to hear back.
That would be my concern is if it's going to be another month, you may not ever hear anything.
Bye.
Speaker 3 (41:17.294)
I hear stories of friends all the time interviewing for five, six, seven more rounds over many months. And it's the kind of thing where as an employer, you're sending a signal. We can pick whoever we want. We don't need you. You, we're going to make you crawl through some mud to get here. But for the big companies like the Amazons and the Teslas of the world that where you get that stamp on that resume and all of a sudden you are an ex-Tesla employee for your, for the rest of your career.
some people view it as something that's worth it. And it's just a very tough environment. think that one of the things we've been studying here at school is that it's widely reported that seven companies account for the vast majority of all of the stock markets gains in 2024. So those seven companies working for them is such a huge deal, no matter what industry you're in, that it can be a make or break thing to get that kind of a job. people will...
take an offer here at the MBA program for a company they don't really want because they're so scared about the job market and keep interviewing. And a lot of companies that hire MBAs and make offers in October, knowing people graduate in May, get it and do the math and use historical data to say, yep, we've offered 10 positions. We know we're going to get seven and we need to offer those 10 so that we get those seven at the end. It's a pretty shrewd, pretty cutthroat environment and a lot of the hiring stuff that you see, but it's also just economics. It's also just
What people are doing is trying to make ends meet.
Yeah, it's really interesting to hear the flip side. Make 10 offers hoping 7 will stick. It's wild.
Speaker 2 (42:54.38)
I mean, I think as a candidate, you have to decide what's important to you. If the most important thing to you is to get one of those big company names on your resume, then don't even waste time with anybody else then would be my advice. Why bother? Cause really you're going to ruin your reputation by accepting offers and declining at the last minute. It's another way to ruin your reputation. Give yourself a bad name, particularly in the AEC industry. Like you said, it's a small industry and
I am stymied all the time by how I will work with somebody on a project in California and I will go to the East coast and I'll encounter that same person. Right. And then I'm in Texas and I encounter this, another person that I worked with from far away. It's a big, small world and it's a big, small industry. And there's only so what, depending on exactly what it is that you do. And I know that your business is design firms.
On the contracting side, it's the same thing. There's only so many companies out there. And after a while, you will get a reputation. So you need to decide what that reputation is going to be. Is it going to be a good one or a not good one?
Yeah, and some young people may not know, but a lot of people know whether they thrive in a smaller company environment or a huge company. Someone who's coming from AECOM or Jacobs, one of these huge firms where they've been able to work remotely most of the time. They're honestly not a good fit for these mid-size, maybe two to 300 person companies because.
Honestly, at some of those big firms, you can hide. When you're just doing one thing, you're very pigeonholed, whereas at a smaller firm, you're wearing lots of hats and there is no place to hide.
Speaker 3 (44:39.566)
Not only that, at some of those bigger firms, I had the occasion to work with one of the bigger firms on a project. And I just noticed that the attitude and the service levels were different. They were remote the whole time. And it was just like pulling teats to try to get in. This is not, this is generalizing broadly. This is one person's experience one time. In my other experiences where people were local, where people were in smaller, even 20 to 30 person firms as opposed to 200 to 300, they would drive out. They would.
pick up the phone at the moment I call, they would interact and provide great service. there's just a very different attitude towards what you're selling at that point. think it's hard. I had no idea what I was thinking when I was 21 and I just got my mechanical engineering degree. was like, yeah, you just do the math and then people, and then you collect a salary and you go home. Now there's so many other factors to doing the business of that job. It's, it's great. It's an exciting thing to learn as you get older in your career, but it's also.
a tough thing to look inward and say, this is what I need to do to position myself for the most success, even if it's not the most money, which is what we all play as a scoreboard in some senses, or at least we try not to, but when we're younger, do. Finding the right fit for you, as cliche as it sounds, is so important to creating a career that is going to pay off in the long term. A lot of my friends in NBA programs right now are looking at
start dates in October, in November, even though they graduate in May, because these consulting companies are really slow and they just can't afford to pay these people all at once to come right on. And what I think about when I've made decisions I've made, just having a job and being employed more months of the year is gonna make a big difference in my first year conversation versus theirs. And staying employed as opposed to working really hard at some company for a long time and then taking a couple months off.
because you're burnt out and then trying to find something else that's really high paced. That can be the right rhythm of life for some people, but it's got some trade-offs, financially speaking. So lots of things to consider when you're finding that right fit for yourself.
Speaker 1 (46:50.7)
Yeah, for sure.
And I think the turnover rate and construction and AEC is higher than the national average for other industries. So burnout is real. I think things are getting better. We asked about changes since COVID. I know it's a very deadline driven industry, but we have to set boundaries. think both as employees and employers. When my husband started his career as an architect, when this was 2002, so a long time ago,
But he was pulling all nighters. I was like, I didn't even do this in college and you're doing this in your job. This is insane. And so I think it's gotten better and still want to see more women in the industry. think construction has 9 % female to male, which is terrible. And so lots of room for growth there, but we have to be able to support parents because they do need a flex schedule sometimes.
and working moms. Maybe they start early and leave early to pick their kids up at school and things like that. So I still think we have a long way to go.
Speaker 3 (47:56.024)
think you bring up a really interesting point when it comes to the companies that you see that are going to market the best when they're searching for employees, when they're searching for that next great talent hire. Are there things about those go-to-market strategies in terms of finding an employee that stand out to you as a strong strategy right now? Or that's something that's always been a strong strategy?
Yeah, I think if you want to attract diverse employees, you have to have diversity represented within your company. I've worked with women who have gone on a company's website and said, I do not want to work there. It is all old white men. Like that's all that's on the website. Don't want to do it. So they're looking for diversity. I think also offering flex hours or hybrid schedule is really important to attract people.
If you can offer some remote work, great. I know most places can't. It's still very highly collaborative, but that's a big seller. PTO, you know, some companies are like, we only do two weeks PTO. That doesn't cut it anymore. I think three is the standard. Most people want four or five weeks as they have more experience. Wellness bonuses, we see a lot of that, but I think the culture and the growth and diversity of the company.
I think everyone pretty much has medical dental vision that they offer. Is there going to be like some dollar and cents difference, probably minimally, but where can you stand out in those other things? And I think that's culture. I think it's having the diverse workforce and I think it's offering career growth.
just offering PTO versus sick time and vacation time. Every employer I ever had on the contracting side did sick time vacation time. So for somebody like me who's never sick, was a ripoff because I never got to use any of that time. And if I did, it would be more like when my kids were sick because thankfully I've always been pretty healthy.
Speaker 2 (49:56.47)
just employers that offer PTO so that you can use that time, you get it all. And you can use it in the way that works for you, I think is a huge benefit. And I know a lot of general contractors have switched over to the PTO model, but trade contractors, I think there's a lot of them that still haven't done that.
Yeah, I've seen that switch to the PTO versus just sick and vacation time, which I think makes more sense that you don't have to fake being sick if you just need a day off. You know, just use your PTO right? And the old days we would call and cough and pretend we were sick.
Seriously, let's just be honest. Who hasn't called in sick and not really sick. I've called in sick of going to work, called in a mental health day. Sure. Over the years being a consultant, I feel like I get a little bit out of touch sometimes with some of the trends and thank you LinkedIn and all the people that I follow on LinkedIn for keeping me up to date with some of this stuff. There is something that's going on in the industry right now that well in
That's right.
Speaker 2 (51:03.848)
all industry right now and not just AEC specifically that I am just learning about. And I was blown away when I found out about it. Bot interviews. There was a guy that posted on LinkedIn the other day about how he had gone to a phone interview, scheduled a phone interview with this company. And it was an AI bot that was interviewing him. And it went a whole lot like a automated phone system kind of a thing.
that where you have to talk into it and it keeps asking you to repeat because it doesn't understand. And then it goes off in some weird tangent and then it up on you and just all this crazy stuff. And then of course I'm reading the comments because all people are chiming in about their experiences. And there were a couple of people that say, yeah, I've had that and it wasn't too bad. But a lot of people were saying, oh, it was horrible. It's just a horrible experience. My thought was I cannot believe we have lowered to this level.
I, there is nothing worse on this planet than a automated phone system. is to me, the absolute lowest level that a company can reach is to go to an automated phone system. And I think almost everybody's there now, which is just horrible. And I've doubt I will never open a brick and mortar business without a live human being answering the phone. I know it's a pain in the neck to have somebody doing that, but
It's removing the humanity and are we really going to remove the humanity out of an HR function? Are we really going to remove the humanity out of the people that we're trying to be the face of our business? you have any clients that are doing this? Have you had any experience with this at all?
have not had any clients do this. No, I did have a client in Atlanta who used something called Spark interviews and so it was a video interview. And so basically their first interview would be questions that would come up on the screen and it would be videoing you and your response and then it would move on to the next question. So I guess that's AI, but nothing like what you're saying where you're on the phone.
Speaker 1 (53:19.498)
Trying to answer, which I think would be so frustrating and I would probably just hang up. Because when I had to repeat myself for third time and talk like a robot, I would just say, forget it. Yeah, I do. like AI and I think it can be so helpful. You can put a job description in chat GPT and have it rewrite it for you or be more compelling. Let's lean on AI that way and not completely remove human functions.
I've also seen how now it can scrape the Internet. I've used one to help find candidates for a client. So I love that that it can like pull people from LinkedIn and give me their email or their phone number and put it all together based on who has a PE and who's done this and that. So I think leaning on it that way. But yeah, I think doing a phone interview with a chat bot would be really annoying.
I've been through one of those types of interviews. was not for a job. It was for Northwestern's Kellogg MBA program. But they had something where instead of an alum or a current student interviewing you to understand more about you as a person, they would just give you a question. And there was this ticking time thing, like a fuse on a bomb sliding across the screen. And I was getting through my question and I was looking at the thing.
When you're in a conversation with somebody, you know that you want to get your idea out quickly. You know that there's only a limited amount of time to explain your value add, but you don't see it. And I was freaking out as I was watching this thing tick down and I didn't get out most of my hits because I got too stressed out about that. And I think as an as a tool to learn how to interview better, maybe these tools can be a great quote unquote safe digital space to rehearse.
That's right.
Speaker 3 (55:06.934)
Interviewing without having to ask somebody to sit there and give you feedback. You can watch yourself and coach yourself, which is Challenging for any of us. I hate watching myself recorded but the
The implementation of AI, I think, frustrates us across all kinds of boundaries where why don't we have AI doing clash detection? Why are we using AI to analyze conversations? People should be able to get these kind of emotional things right, rather than... But then again, the standardization that the AI interviewing offers is interesting to some people where they're trying to eliminate any bias whatsoever, avoid people connecting on the things they have in common.
and getting distracted by those as opposed to staying on topic about what that person has to offer. So there's silver linings to the AI interviewing thing, I think, but for the most part, I still don't see it as valued.
Yeah, I agree, Brad. I think it'd be really nice for mock interviews so you can practice and get that feedback. I also hate hearing my cell phone video or audio, which I have a podcast.
These podcasters are like, I don't like seeing myself on video.
Speaker 2 (56:20.844)
The truth is coming out. Nobody likes to see themselves on video. I had to spend a long time getting over it. I get it.
I know. You hear actors say that too, like they don't want to watch their own movies. I'm like, come on, you had hair and makeup.
and many retakes, which we don't really get in doing podcasting.
Modified lighting. If Robert Redford doesn't like the way he looks on camera, what am I doing here?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:48.846)
There's a lot more confidence that's required when we don't have hair and makeup and 20 retakes. This requires a lot more consumption.
This is really...
This is actual reality TV. So what, if any, are the silver bullets for retention in today's employment market? How can we summarize everything that we've talked about today and say, what is it that people really want? What can employers do and what can job seekers do to get the best results?
I think job seekers, once they find a company that they like, if they're hired on, they wanna be respected. They wanna have that open dialogue and they wanna have career growth. So they wanna know that if they stick with you, they will get raises, their work is going to be respected and they'll be respected and that they can move up with the company. I think that's the big thing. And yes, things happen in the economy, but I think from leadership, it's...
being open and vulnerable and saying, we're going through this, we're gonna get through it, this is what's happening right now, this is what we're seeing. And just being honest with people, your employees without scaring them. And I just think employees want a place where they can grow.
Speaker 1 (58:05.454)
Now, whether that's ownership one day or just moving out through the ranks.
Yeah, those are great answers. Okay, so I have a really selfish question. As an independent consultant, I have always wondered why recruiters do not work with independent consultants. So let me just tell you about, I brought this brought forward for this interview is because I got contacted by a recruiter a couple of weeks ago.
And they said, Hey, we see your thing on probably through a scraper, like you're saying on LinkedIn. Hey, we see that you have this background. We're looking for somebody to be an infrastructure project manager for a 12 month plus contract. My immediate response is as a consultant, I've never had a successful contact with a recruiter because they're always only hiring W2 employees, but this one specifically says it's a contract. so I'm thinking, okay, if they've really looked at my profile.
It's clear that I'm a consultant. So I went ahead and called the person back. My first words out of my mouth is, are you talking about a 1099 or are you talking about a W2? And they said, well, it's a contract position. And I said, no, I get that. But I'm saying I'm a 1099 and I can cover this. have people that can cover this. We are a perfect match for what you're looking for. But they said, you have to sign on W2. And I said, yeah, I'm not doing that for all kinds of business reasons.
And I'm wondering if a recruiter can bring somebody on as a W-2 and with the way your fee structure works and everything, why couldn't you do the same thing with a consultant?
Speaker 1 (59:42.55)
I think you probably could. I think it's an education piece that's missing because it comes down to taxes. And does the recruiting company have to offer a workers comp or are you fully employed by the company? Because we don't do any contract to hire or contract placement. It's all direct hire, permanent placement. So you work for the company from day one. We're just here to make the match, facilitate these conversations, help negotiate and all of that.
So then you're not on our insurance. We don't have to provide workers comp or any of that stuff. But I think on the recruiter's part, they should be able to go to the client and say, look, I found this person who's a great match for what you're looking for. They want to be 1099. Would you consider it? And let them work it out because we have done that in the past.
I think it's just that you don't fit into this nice, neat employee box. Hey, Dee is an employee now and she's going to move companies and be an employee from A to company B. That's easy. We've done that. It's like they don't know how to process it and what that means. But I think if you can just have those conversations and say, let me talk to the company and let's see if we can work something out, which we're fine to do as long as we get paid, you get the job. I don't care.
All right. And in my particular case, it's a business to business situation. So I'm an incorporated company. have other consultants that work for me for staff augmentation. And that's a lot of the service that we provide is that we're brought on as a company, as a consultant for whatever business we're working for. So there's no need for anybody to provide insurance or.
workers comp or any of that kind of stuff. And that's the beauty of a 10 99 is that as an employer, you don't need to provide any of that stuff. That person is responsible for all their own things. And I guess I'm just saying this out loud because I think there's an untapped market here for recruiters. Yeah. There are consultants out there like me, there are consultants that are sole proprietorships, but still 10 99 where they provide all their own medical dental. They're responsible for all their own stuff that.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55.626)
are out there looking for work all the time and are really good fits for some of these job positions that you have. And the beauty of it for the employer is that when that 12 month contract is over, you don't have to keep that person fed. You just terminate the contract and you're done.
Especially for a contract, I don't know why you wouldn't go that route. I understand if you're trying to bring someone on as an employee and you want them to be there with you five, 10 years, then okay, I get it. But for a contract, it makes no sense to me as to why you wouldn't hire someone like yourself.
throwing it out there recruiters, there's consultants like me, there's, and I have a dozen other consultants that I know that are in the same boat, that I think there's a potential here for a match that there's no disadvantage to anyone unless like you said, if the company's looking to bring on a long term employee, but oftentimes, sometimes consultants can be turned into employees that happens all the time.
So I just want to throw that out there as a possible business opportunity for recruiters like you, Bryce, to find those matches. And it's an untapped resource out there. Brad, I think you had a question about firing versus laying off.
Speaker 3 (01:03:21.442)
One of the things that we've spent some time learning about in the MBA is the legality of firing an employee versus laying them off. And when a company is experiencing a downturn, what they do is they lay somebody off because they don't have enough work. When they fire somebody, it's for cause. It's because there was something wrong with their performance. Something else happened. So when it comes to the burden on the employer,
when they choose to lay somebody off versus when they fire somebody, is there a difference in how the post-employment benefits are laid out? Is there a difference in the expenditure they might have to make as part of the cost of that employee's unemployment benefits? How does that all look?
huh. Yeah, so I'm not an HR guru over here, but what it's March 2025 right now. So we are seeing some people being laid off and we're seeing people being furloughed, meaning they keep their benefits, but they don't have work for them. And so they come to us like, hey, I've got benefits for this long. I'm hoping to be called back, but if I'm not, then I'm looking for a job.
And then that's when we start asking, but you are called back and we find your job. Are you taking the job or are you going to wait and be called back? seeing furloughs for the first time in a long time and then layoffs from my end, which is really interesting is that a lot of times you'll hear a candidate say I was laid off or they'll say I was let go. They rarely say fired, but it means the same thing. When they say laid off, then I like to ask how many people were laid off? If you were one of two.
And a huge company, that's a red flag. But if they're like, when I just saw this with Brown and Caldwell, they laid off 99 people and some people were caught up in that. Yeah. Then it's a true layoff. But you're right. I think you have to take into account the benefits, the unemployment piece and what that looks like. I'll be honest. I don't clearly know the difference in all of them, but fire to me, like you said, is for cause. And you're out of there. And then a layoff for furloughs, slightly different.
Speaker 2 (01:05:32.674)
Interesting to hear that people are being furloughed. hadn't heard that.
Yeah, some of these government agencies are furloughing people and maybe they'll be called back or not. I don't know.
Did you have any closing comments or questions?
think if I can wrap up what I've learned today as the youngest least experienced person in the room, it's that you get what you pay for and that with somebody like Bryce, with the amount of industry experience, with the amount of sense for people, with the understanding of what it takes to employ somebody and how to look for the best person who fits your organization, even though recruiter may seem like the most expensive way to go, it's a very smart decision if you have a relationship, if you can convey
the details of what your company is looking for and then trust somebody to go execute on your behalf who does that all the time. Oftentimes, especially people with a certain mindset seek to spend the least amount of money possible for what they view to be the same amount of value rendered. But I trust the market. I trust that economics work the way they're supposed to. And I think that with a recruiter, you truly get what you pay for.
Speaker 2 (01:06:46.87)
And key takeaway for job seekers, it doesn't cost you anything to go with the recruiter. It's totally free to the job seeker. The employer pays the fee. So I guess I I'm always wondering when I hear people that are saying, we've been, I've been out of work for six months, 10 months, 12 months. I'm wondering, are they working for with a recruiter or are they out there on their own? Just trying to figure it out.
And so if you're out there and you're trying to figure it out and it's not working for you and it is so much work to find a job, I get that. Consider contacting a recruiter if you haven't already been contacted. It doesn't cost you anything. And I think maybe there's people out there that don't quite realize that.
So Bryce, how do people reach you?
Yeah, so I'm always on LinkedIn. Hopefully I could be a bright spot your day on LinkedIn. So find me there, connect, and it will ask if you want to subscribe to my newsletter. I would absolutely love if you did that. And then you'll see at the bottom of my newsletter each week, I've got a free AEC hiring playbook. So if you're an employer who is wanting some tips on how to attract and retain talent, you can snag that. It's very high level of what I can offer.
And then if you're a candidate, I'm always sharing tips and tricks as well. And then our website is mycareercollective.com. So you can check out jobs there, learn more about Career Collective and what we do. And yeah, I'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (01:08:18.648)
Great. So look up Bryce Batts, B-R-Y-C-E Batts, B-A-T-T-S on LinkedIn. Subscribe to her newsletter. Check out mycareercollective.com. Thank you so much for being here with us, Bryce. It was a pleasure.
Thank you, I really enjoyed it. And I feel like we could probably talk another hour or two about many things in hiring.
Maybe we'll have a part two a little bit later. Thank you so much.
DEE to get meat or bread at managementunderconstruction.com.
