Brad Wyant (00:00)
Good morning and welcome to Management Under Construction. I'm Brad Wyant
Dee Davis (00:03)
And I'm Dee Davis. In this episode, we are joined by my friend and colleague, John Reis from Engineering Economics Incorporated or EEI, as we like to call them, to talk about commissioning. What it is, why it's important, why do we care? What's the big deal about commissioning? The challenges that projects face and properly implementing commissioning on your project.
Welcome, John. Please tell us a little bit about yourself.
John Reis (00:30)
Thank you for inviting me to your podcast. I greatly appreciate the opportunity. Going way way back, found my interest in buildings while I was still in middle school and eventually went to engineering school and pursued a architectural engineering degree. In that pursuit, I initially thought I wanted to be an architect and sure I'm glad I didn't go down that route. That does not fit my personality or skills whatsoever.
and stuck with the program when I realized what the inner workings of buildings were and found a great excitement and passion for it. The place I went to school had opportunities at that time for structural or building mechanical systems, and it was really drawn to the building mechanical systems focus. I was very fortunate to have some incredible instructors along the way, several of which own their own businesses or were
very prolific managers and controls companies and brought together a lot of real industry experience. And that really continued to brighten the flame for what ended up being a very long career at this point. I was also fortunate enough to have several internships. And what I gathered from those internships after working for a fire protection contractor in the summer out in the field, moving material, helping fitters,
doing essentially labor work or laborer work is I really didn't want a desk job. And I came to realize that my first day back at my desk doing desk work for that fire protection contractor. And that was a big aha moment for me in my career. It was at that point I started pursuing full-time employment. It was my senior year and took a job with a international temperature control contractor and had the opportunity to move out to Colorado.
So I took that opportunity and started working in temperature controls, doing fieldwork, engineering, installation, startup, acceptance work, transitioned after a few years in that to doing sales work, sales engineering work. And that afforded me an opportunity to see a lot of different types of systems and different types of buildings, existing buildings, new buildings, et cetera. And then through that,
met our founder of EEI for a project that we were working together on and was really interested in what they were doing. And that was commissioning facility assessments, owners rep work, MEP upgrade type work, and really was very exciting for me. And much like you, Brad I had recently graduated with my MBA. I knew that I didn't want to continue down the path of doing technical work. And I saw this as an opportunity.
for me to join a great company. So several decades later, I've grown from a project manager to a senior project manager. About a decade ago, I took over one of our cost centers from our founder as he was moving on to other opportunities in the organization. And now I oversee a larger piece of the organization on our commissioning side primarily.
Been afforded the opportunity to work on a lot of really, really cool projects in my career at EEI. Historic remodels of state capitals, which are very exciting. It was one of my first projects. Worked on chiller plants that were 30,000 tons. Currently wrapping up a hospital right now that's almost 2 million square feet. And it's because of those opportunities, my career has really flourished and been very excited to participate in those projects along the way.
during that journey is where and I met on a pharmaceutical manufacturing project a number of years ago at this point. And that again is another great opportunity along the journey that I've been really grateful for.
Dee Davis (03:56)
You have such a vast experience. And I think that's one of the things that makes commissioning agents and commissioning companies so valuable to us on project work is they get to go see so much more of the world and of projects than we do as people that sit on a project. If you're a project manager, a project engineer, especially if you do bigger work.
You could be sitting on the same project for two, three, four. I've been on the same project for up to five years at a time. That means you have a much more limited view of the world and of what's out there and the kinds of projects that you do. at the end of a project you'll have a couple of months or sometimes even if just a few weeks of concentrated effort at the end of a job.
That means you're getting exposed to so much more work than the rest of us are. And the details, it's not, high level. It's not the same thing as, somebody that goes around and does a bunch of flat work on projects. These are really complicated, detailed projects that commissioning agents like you get to go do. And so your experience is so incredibly valuable to people like Brad and I out in the field.
Brad Wyant (05:05)
Yeah, I'm very excited to learn more about commissioning here. I think there's so much depth in this field. I have a mechanical engineering background. I know a lot of the theoretical knowledge in this space and I've been on some very small jobs during commissioning, but I'm sure there's so much more to learn here, so I'm really excited to hear more from you about the commissioning environment, John.
John Reis (05:22)
Wonderful. Well, let's get started, Dee
Dee Davis (05:24)
Well, I think we kind of slightly touched on it and I want to be very clear here. The difference between building commissioning and systems commissioning. So this is something that when I first started doing commissioning, I was doing commissioning before commissioning was sexy and everybody was doing it and it became a whole thing, right?
Now it seems like everybody does commissioning and to some degree, which we'll talk about that a little bit more about who should really be doing commissioning and who maybe shouldn't be. But building commissioning is different than systems commissioning. So systems commissioning is just what it sounds like. It's your commissioning an individual system. So it might be in the mechanical world, a heating hot water system, a chiller system.
Something like that. It's an actual separate functioning system within a building. Building commissioning is the act of commissioning the actual building, including the building envelope. I've had the. I'm going to just call it an honor of getting to actually do building commissioning in addition to systems commissioning and boy, what a different experience that is. It's.
a whole different level of knowledge that is required to do building commissioning. And it's way more than just doing a hose test on a roof. It's full envelope commissioning, which is a separate skill set. Not all commissioning agents do both of those things. Some do only one or the other. So I just want to make that differentiation for our listeners. We're here to talk about systems commissioning today.
Building commissioning, I think that's a good topic for another podcast and I can think of a few people that might be great guests for that. So Brad, what has been your experiences with systems commissioning so far?
Brad Wyant (07:10)
You know, I haven't had a whole lot. haven't had the breadth and depth of experience that either there are people on this podcast have, but I remember a very fun example of commissioning from. Early on in my career, I was working in Los Angeles and the city of Los Angeles has some very nuanced details about how they want their high rise mechanical buildings to work when it comes to fire alarms and fire systems. So part of our commissioning process was to ensure that everything worked the way that.
was supposed to according with code and the big thing inspector told us he wanted to see was for the whole system to shut down certain conditions. So we're there at four in the morning pulling ceiling tiles, hanging red ties so that you can see the moment they all drop across the entire floor of this high rise so that it's exactly the way it should be. That was just one step in the commissioning process and I'm sure that maybe some might not even call that a commissioning step, but to me it was part of making sure that the system
did what it was supposed to once it was up and running and the controls were integrated and everything. So I would define that as commissioning, but I'd be open to John telling me, no, that's not actually commissioning if I'm wrong.
John Reis (08:12)
I think it's part of the threat, Brad know, commissioning is really a journey that should start before design or at early design and go all the way through design into construction, into startup, which is oftentimes confused with commissioning, into system level testing, then into a broader building based testing where you've got system interactions.
And then at the end of a project, you've got tests such as you're doing with the fire alarm, where you're doing high rise shutdowns. You probably had some stair pressurization on that project where you're doing pulling doors and verifying pressures and verifying egress and what happens to elevators during those times. And what happens during a power outage in that scenario. know, having not been there, Brad, I'd hazard a guess that you had to shut the power off at some point.
for that project and see what happened when the building went under emergency power or how building responded during a power outage for that exact scenario you're talking about on the fire alarm and life safety aspect. know, part of the commissioning process is a breadth of systems and interactions and disparate installing parties and responsible engineers and architects. And it's bringing all of those componentry together for building that performs.
Brad Wyant (09:25)
Way cool. So it sounds like I was just touching one very small piece of the process there.
John Reis (09:28)
Indeed.
Dee Davis (09:29)
And you mentioned my very, favorite part of commissioning is the drop test. That's my favorite part. I love drop tests. It's so fun to see what happens when you drop power. So what you do is you, you actually will go in and drop power to the building and see what happens. Do things turn off like they're supposed to? Will they come back on like they're supposed to when you reactivate the power?
It almost never works right the first time and you have some crazy things that happen in buildings when you do those drop tests. Things that you would have never expected or never thought would happen with all kinds of different systems and components. And so there's always a challenge. And there's always some mystery around doing a drop test, and that's, think, why it's my favorite part of commissioning. If we don't get to do it, I get really sad.
And it's kind of risky not to do it because at some point you are going to lose power and you should know what's going to happen before it happens.
John Reis (10:29)
Absolutely. I'd like to say that the integrated system tests or drop tests is like a final exam. What happens after we've done all of this work, how are we going to get our final grade? This is the final effort that we have to go through that. And you're exactly right. These some things come on, some things don't turn back on, some things shut down for safety reasons. Sometimes things are miswired and, circuits aren't appropriate. know, half the time lighting can be mislabeled. I mean, there are
multitude of things that can happen in the built environment. the reality is this is not an assembly line. It is not a repeatable process and we're building prototypes and mistakes get made along the way. It's not malicious. It's human nature. Things happen and that integrated system test really can help unveil some of those things before it really matters when the building is occupied.
Dee Davis (11:18)
Yeah, especially when you're talking about a critical facility of any kind and your and or you're talking about life safety systems. I have had so many. Life safety failures during those kinds of tests a damper closes and will not reopen. just crazy things like that that are going to matter or it doesn't close, which is even worse.
So there's all kinds of things that can happen. So commissioning is an adventure for sure. And it's not a desk job. You have to be out there in the field running around. When I go do commissioning myself, which I don't do much anymore, I'll hire companies like EEI and to come out and do it. And I may be running around out in the field with them, but they're doing most of the hands-on work.
you get a lot of steps in. That's all I can say. You are running around that building like a crazy person. It is definitely not a desk job.
So the intent of commissioning is to ensure that everything that we did was installed as designed and all the equipment and systems are working together as it was intended to do. Why is systems commissioning so important, John?
John Reis (12:21)
You mentioned it in the preamble of your question. And I would take your statement back maybe a half a step or a quarter turn, and I would start with it's verifying that the owner is getting what they want from the engineer and architect. And then as it is designed, it is installed by the installing parties in accordance with the intent of the engineer record.
And then as all of those parties come together for a system and a building to function, that they interact and operate as they should. So there's this multiple step journey that you have to go along the way. Part of the interaction that we have during design is understanding what the owner is seeking and interpreting what that means and coordinating with the engineer. And I'll give you an example. It's one of my favorite examples.
that I use probably too much, if I'm being honest. I had a project where the owner said, I want redundancy in my air handler. So Dee, what does that mean to you?
Dee Davis (13:22)
That can mean a lot of things. That means you have a completely redundant air handler. It could also mean you have redundant components in the air handler like fans and things like that. There's lots of ways to interpret that.
John Reis (13:34)
So you hit the exact two examples that where we're going. So the engineer heard I need to put in a second air handler and the red flag for me was it's a hospital with six operating rooms. It wasn't a very big space and it wasn't a hospital of critical nature where that they needed that level of redundancy. And when we asked them then the engineer well.
to help us understand why there's two air handlers. And they said, well, the owner wants redundancy. And we were in room and I looked at the owner and said, well, what does redundancy mean to you guys? I want another fan motor and VFD. Well, that's a simple misunderstanding from a requirements perspective. Neither party made a mistake. It was simply how it was interpreted. And through that work, we saved hundreds of thousands of dollars in controls and electrical and.
and the air handler proper and the footprint. We gave back the footprint, right?
Dee Davis (14:25)
And the roof or the mechanical space, yeah.
John Reis (14:29)
Yeah, so it's a significant finding and really what it was, it helping us limit the assumptions and that misinterpretation of data along the way. And then as you roll into construction, so much of our time is spent doing the work up front with the controls contractor, and that's getting sequences of operations to a point where they're going to work. You know, the owner may have a desire for systems operate in one manner.
The engineer may intend or have a desire for it to operate in another manner, and the controls contractor may have an experience where neither one of those is going to work. And having those conversations and building the bridges between the parties really helps us get a system that works out of the gate better than it would had we not. we're eliminating gray areas is really what it comes down to at that point. And again, it's those minor misinterpretations that have a tendency to be stumbling blocks along the way.
as construction professionals, know that rework is the enemy of done and having to go back and rework or redo any type of things that the controls contractors already done cost time. And then it opens up to possibility of mistakes when they're made, because maybe that copy paste didn't go the way it was supposed to in that rework. So that planning work helps us get to a point where actually able to go out and do the testing and that testing is that.
How does it work? How does it function? How does it interact? And does it perform in accordance with going way back to what the owner was intending and wanting it to do?
Dee Davis (15:58)
one of the things that I commissioning agents bring to a project as experts in equipment and systems is we as project people.
when I say project people, mean project managers, project engineers, construction people, designers. we are so involved and so in the weeds on a design and on the execution and all the things that are going on that sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. And bringing in a commissioning expert or a team of commissioning experts, they have that same background.
maybe even more experience than you have. And they're able to kind of come in at 50,000 feet and look at what we're doing and go, hey guys, why are you doing that? That doesn't make any sense. Well, we're so stuck in our head about we need redundancy on that air handler that we've stopped thinking about it and we're just moving forward. And it takes somebody from the outside with the proper level of expertise and experience.
to ask that question, go, wait a minute, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? And everybody else kind of sits back and goes, you know, I'm not sure. Why are we doing that? And it's like an aha moment for the project. we can get that. And when we don't bring commissioning agents in early enough, we'll talk about what early enough is in a minute.
We lose the opportunity to leverage that experience and that knowledge and that 50,000 foot outside expert that we're gonna need to bring in eventually anyway. Let's bring them in when we can solve problems that are solvable now and not when it's too late.
Brad Wyant (17:33)
So what kind of background and skills does a great commissioning agent need? What kind of education is required? there certifications that people should try to seek out in your business?
John Reis (17:43)
there's a multitude of things, but we'll talk about that. I'll break them down. So from an experience standpoint, our organization has design engineers that left the design world and came over to commissioning. We have persons that were certified in test and balance, and they're really strong on the TAB side of the world. A lot of persons come from temperature controls and come on over to do. Commissioning type work and and that is one of the
best examples of skill transferring. So much of what we do is temperature controls or controls based. Having that knowledge understanding really does transfer very well. So those are the spectrums you get. You also find a lot of our folks on our mission critical team. A lot of them are Navy nukes. They come from a very thorough and thoughtful and methodical means of executing their day to day work.
And now they're working in data centers on electrical mechanical systems, so their education experience and approach is something that fits very well within the type of work that they're doing. So that's kind of the background of where that is. We have, hired more than our share of early career folks. We're looking for somebody that's got the right attitude and wants to show up and do the work and learn, and that's the most important part is they want to learn and be there to.
feed from others and grow in their career. And then we've had a lot of other folks that have been in the industry for a while and they're looking to get away from being a contractor and go over to the professional services side of the world. So there's some transitions that happen for a lot of people in their career journey. There are a multitude of certifications that are available right now through the Building Commission Association, the ACG,
University of Wisconsin. There's a number of them that are out there that you could get. There are also other services out there as Dee mentioned, forward building and closure type work for your future podcast. What type of certifications that you can get along the way. So there's a lot of things that you can bring to a project and a company. And then there are things that you can do, Brad, to get certified as well as an expert.
Dee Davis (19:46)
Yeah, there's several professional organizations that offer commissioning certifications. believe ASHRAE has one. there's a couple of other ones. as you were. Talking it occurred to me that we should clarify what the difference is.
between hands-on and hands-off commissioning, because this is something that I have encountered in my professional experience where
there's two types of commissioning agents that you can hire. One is called a hands-on commissioning agent, which is what EEI does. And there's a hands-off commissioning agent. So hands-off commissioning agents are a little sarcastically referred to as clipboard commissioning agents sometimes in the industry, They do all the paperwork and
They're assuming that the contractors or vendors are going to be doing the work and they are witnessing and documenting the work that is being done, the test that is being done. Hands-on commissioning agents have people that are specialists in different types of systems. So if you're testing boilers that day, they might have a boiler specialist.
That's going to be right in their knees and elbows with the contractors doing the work and making sure that everything is functioning properly. It's important as an owner or a GC or whoever might be hiring the commissioning agent to understand what kind of services that particular commissioning agent offers. If all you need is a clipboard commissioning agent because you already have it under contract that you've got all these other people performing the stuff,
That's totally fine, as long as they're properly qualified. If that's not in the scope of your contractors, you may need to scope it differently and make sure that you get a hands-on commissioning agent. Does that make sense?
John Reis (21:33)
It does it does and there's some middle ground there too. You know when there are there is opportunity for things to break or go sideways or there are some tremendous amount of complexity where you need that controls person to override or interact with a system. You're going to want more of that hands off as directed. If you've got a simple VAV box on the other hand, there can be opportunity to be very hands on.
And there's systems and interactions along the way. To Dee's point, so much of it is understanding what the firm is bringing and what the individuals are bringing. Obviously, people matter across the board, regardless of the industry and the contribution they're making to any given project. And having somebody that is an expert in emergency power systems or they have a tremendous amount of knowledge in
In USP pharmaceutical manufacturing inside of a hospital and that that room is their core area of expertise. Having them bring their knowledge to execute the testing, whether that's through hands on where they're doing some of the work themselves, or that's a more hands off directing the traffic is certainly something that any owner or anybody purchasing or buying out these services should really understand what the broader team can be. There is also
an industry approach of, go through the building as quick as it can, check the boxes, submit a report. That does not necessarily result in the best results for the owner from a system performance standpoint. And that is something that, we very much work to get to the root of issues, to get to the ultimate system performance along the way.
And it takes time and to Dee's point it does take effort on behalf of the contractors for us to get to that point to turn over the building that performs. And ultimately when it's all said and done, the intent is for building that performs and from a contractor's perspective is to lessen rework and lessen warranty calls and lessen revisiting after the project is done and the crew is off on the next job and they're not available to get out there to service the worker assist.
Brad Wyant (23:45)
So just to make sure I understand, think I'm really learning a lot here in this conversation. It sounds like a hands-off commissioning agent is somebody who's more like a building notary who ends up being able to declare that they observed that the building performed as it should. Whereas a hands-on commissioning agent is somebody who's in there working with the teams to tune things properly to make sure that things are the way they should be and has a vested interest in.
achieving a performance goal along with a group of people. Is that a good way of trying to understand what we're trying to talk about here?
Dee Davis (24:14)
I don't know if I'd go as far as calling them a notary. When I've seen people take more of the hands-off documentation approach, it's when they don't have the actual field experience. take this for what it's worth, when I've seen it happen, it's usually design firms that are trying to get into the commissioning biz.
I've had this happen on a couple of jobs. They'll go, well, we've got Joe mechanical designer over here and we're going to bid the commissioning with him. well, first of all, you design the building. that that's a problem. But the other part of it is just because you can design things doesn't necessarily mean that you have the field experience to commission things. And that's when I've seen it. I don't see it as much as I used to see it.
When commissioning first started becoming a bigger thing, and that was actually something I wanted to talk about was in the last 15 years, maybe 20, commissioning has just exploded. It started off being this thing that was elective. People weren't required to do it. was something that companies who really knew the value would
hire a contractor to do. And I worked for one of those commissioning companies. I ran one of those commissioning companies for a number of years. then it became kind of buzzwordy where all of a sudden everybody's a commissioning agent and maybe some people who shouldn't be. Because at that time, there was this this middle period where there were no certifications,
anything like that. you just decided one day you were a commissioning agent and you went out and you're marketed yourself that way and maybe you shouldn't be. But we still are confused by what commissioning really is. hear it used interchangeably as you indicated before with startup. startup and commissioning. Well, those are two very separate things. And I would like you to elaborate a little bit more on that. You alluded to it before, John.
I also would like you to talk about how you've seen the marketplace change in your tenure in the industry.
John Reis (26:10)
Yeah, great question. EEI we did our first commissioning project in 1991. So way, way ahead of the curve on that. Our founder was quite the visionary on it. He didn't call commissioning then this proof of performance. the joke I make is, people commissioned boats back then, not buildings. And as the industry has matured,
There went from a relatively small amount of qualified providers. A lot of times it was firms like EEI where their primary business was commissioning and that's what they did to a broader spectrum of providers. And I think that that broader providers was brought upon by two things. The first is the proliferation of LEED and the requirement for commissioning. And you saw a lot more firms doing that type of work.
And then the other thing that actually happened was the 08 recession, where a lot of design firms weren't being able to do as much design work and they had staff qualified to do design work that they wanted to keep engaged. So they started offering commissioning work and we saw an uptick in players kind of around that same time. How the industry's changed is a little bit like we talked about in in regards that.
There are certainly more players in the market. Again, that's I think my inclination is a lot of that was driven by LEED More sophisticated owners who may have bought services 10 or 15 or 20 years ago are buying more services now they're buying more services earlier. 15 years ago we wouldn't do envelope work. Now I am a staunch proponent of doing envelope work.
you can't blow up a balloon when it's got holes in it. I can't pressurize a building with the HVAC system when the building's got holes in it. So I'm a huge believer in it for the dollar per value that the owner receives from it is so well spent. We're also seeing other systems that we hadn't historically tested or seen in the past, whether that be some enhanced life safety type systems.
Perhaps it's more advanced lighting control, which has gotten really, really complicated as of late. Or even when we start looking at guideline 36, the ASHRAE standard for reset schedule, which is really, really complicated to implement and make work the way it's supposed to. So there's kind of been this morph in the industry where sophisticated clients have grown with that sophistication.
and brought on more services as their buildings have gotten more complicated, recognizing the challenges that come with that complication.
Dee Davis (28:41)
Well, and in some marketplaces, commissioning has become a requirement. I don't actually know if that's true in all marketplaces. I don't know if you know that, John, but I.
John Reis (28:51)
not
all marketplaces. It's code driven by the IECC in 2015, 2018, it became a code requirement. that's major equipment above certain BTUs, cooling above certain BTUs, domestic hot water and lighting control. It is a very minimal amount of commissioning that is required. However, it's better than what was getting done prior to being code required.
So it is a definite step in the right direction for an owner to have to engage that service.
Dee Davis (29:26)
Yeah, there are certain states that have adopted local codes or compliance that have really promoted commissioning along down the road and for people to really start seeing the value. I have to admit that as recently as two years ago, I had a designer say these words to me. We don't need a commissioning agent. What do we need that for? We have good contractors.
John Reis (29:53)
I heard that in the last two weeks.
Dee Davis (29:54)
Yeah
John Reis (29:55)
There are definitely parts of the country that are more mature in service delivery than other parts. And some instances they've been doing it for a very, very long time and it's just part of the industry. And there's other places where you hear exactly what you just said. Well, why would I do that when I've got good contracts?
Dee Davis (30:15)
Yeah, I've had that happen quite a bit in the last few years, which surprises me, I guess, maybe because commissioning has been part of my life for so long. I can't imagine doing a project without it. I see the value in it. I've seen what it can do for a building and for an owner. The value is 10, 20, 30 times what you're paying for the service easily.
especially when you start taking into account things like envelope commissioning. my very first project last year where I was in charge of envelope commissioning and it was very educational. I had to learn a lot of stuff on that job, but I see the value.
John Reis (30:57)
Yeah.
Dee Davis (30:58)
Yeah, very architecturally driven, which for me as a mechanical person was the steep learning curve. I learned lots of new words.
Brad Wyant (31:06)
We just touched on an interesting subject there. think about incentives and aligning those as far as performance goes in this environment. And it struck me that in every instance I've worked in, the commissioning agent has been somebody hired directly by the owner as opposed to somebody who works for the engineers or for the contractor. So why is it in your opinion that commissioning agents typically work for the owner? Are there different relationships when that isn't the case? And is there an ideal state there to your mind?
John Reis (31:32)
Yes, so we have worked for architects or engineers. We have worked for construction managers more often than not. We work for an owner or owners rep directly and the reason is transparency. as the owners advocate working for them as the owner, ultimately being the occupier of that building, it elevates our status inside of the broader team and it.
It prevents us from being. Ushered away or having issues not being addressed in a timely manner.
Dee Davis (32:02)
Yeah, put some teeth in it for you, right? Because when you go to the owner and you say, have these five things and they're still not done. And here's the implications. The owner is the one that can can pull on that cord to get things done or choose not to and suffer the consequences, right?
Brad Wyant (32:18)
It's almost like a trust but verify system here. It's not as if you're going to drive a car off the lot without ever having taken it around the block. The idea that somebody who's an expert in that driving and that test drive should come on and work directly for you seems pretty prudent to me.
John Reis (32:34)
As your advocate, as the owner, somebody that has the technical wherewithal to understand the inner operations of the facility and the systems to advocate for you on your behalf.
Dee Davis (32:45)
this is all about you owners by the way, in case you haven't picked that up yet. This is all about you. You're going to be left with this building and these systems at the end of the day. Do you want it right? Do you want it functioning? Do you want it functioning the way it's supposed to function? That's really what commissioning is all about. So I'm going to ask you a super loaded question. Is there such a thing as bringing a commissioning agent on too early?
John Reis (33:07)
Well, yes. You could bring a commissioning agent on before a project is ever approved and that would just be a waste of money. I guess the answer to your question is yes. Where I think you're going with that is how early is early enough? If I can say it a different way. And to unload your loaded question, if I may. Where I think that the best engagement is to have
through that OPR, that owner's project requirements, or sometimes your owner's program of requirements, to understand what is intended to go into that building. How is it intended to operate? What are the energy objectives for that building? And armed with that knowledge, it helps inform design reviews and engagement with the broader design team. It helps encourage conversation when temperature controls are brought out. It helps
bring to light performance issues when it comes time to testing and acceptance for the project along the way. So the more knowledge you have upfront, the more you're able to advocate for the owner on their behalf when it comes to what could be some very nuanced and technical conversations is all in the basis of what are they looking to get out of the building that they're building? Why are they spending the money that they're spending? Why are they investing their capital?
to get this project off the ground. Later is oftentimes problematic. If the building is built and turned on and started up and test and balance is done, to come through at that point is not out of the realm of possibility. It's not unheard of, but is of significantly less value to the owner as a result. So the earlier is better.
Is there a sweet spot somewhere in between? I would tell you pre DD is probably the latest. I would advise starting once you get past design development, any design review comment or any experience that we may bring. It's going to be really, really hard to change for the design, especially if there's early purchase equipment or if there's already pricing in place for GMP's on the construction manager side.
it can oftentimes be difficult to undo that type of work and then you have to deal with the consequences of that for the rest of the project.
Dee Davis (35:12)
Yeah, I think it goes back to the statement that we said earlier about bringing that 50,000 foot view, that isn't too buried in the weeds into that design conversation. And being able to implement those recommendations early when it matters. And we can actually do something about it. Yeah, once equipment is ordered, submittals are approved and we're going on down the road.
There's very little other than you could sit there and shake your head and say, gosh dang it, if you'd have brought me on earlier, I could have saved you from this. But it happens sometimes where it's not till later. It better late than never, but definitely earlier is better during design, I think is the key takeaway there, right?
John Reis (35:57)
Yep, and early design late, you're going to play the hand that you're dealt, right? You're going to make it work to the best of what you can work to make it perform the best that it can perform, knowing that there are things that you can't undo. It's just the past is in the past.
Dee Davis (36:11)
what are the key challenges that projects face with commissioning? I know that when I was jotting notes down for this cast, I jotted a few of mine that came to the top of my head, but what comes to the top of your list, John?
John Reis (36:25)
readiness. And, and I like to say, I had this old friend of mine, Brad, I should introduce you to Dee Davis. She used to say, DD F D Dee Davis fully done. That's what that means. And getting to actual right, that's what it means.
Dee Davis (36:40)
Okay, we'll go with that. There might be a swear word in there somewhere, but we're not going to say that part.
John Reis (36:45)
That
cannot be the case. Getting to that point is a struggle. really, what does ready mean? And how do we limit? We're done, but or it's ready except for is the greatest challenge that we face in my opinion as an industry. I can't tell you how many times schedules get compressed. We get pushed to the right down the schedule.
And our time goes from something manageable and reasonable to something very compressed. And then we're working around the it's ready, but or it's done except for. And that leads to inevitable rework that leads to inevitable leaving crumbs behind that we then got to go clean up along the way and presents a real challenge to the industry. The other challenge that I would say is on the construction manager side in particular.
there seems to not be as much foundational MEP system knowledge as would be beneficial to the construction managers. And that's not to say there aren't really, really good people out there. There definitely are. And I've been blessed to work with a lot of them. And I've also seen other construction managers struggle because it was, this person's turn to be the MEP person. when you've got a, a budget that might be
40 % of the total spend and you don't have somebody as an expert really driving through to really push on the contractors to complete the work as they need to complete it because of that fundamental lack of understanding, that can be a real challenge some of the most successful projects we've had is projects where they have somebody dedicated to managing the MEP portion of the project.
and they really do speak the language and they really do understand the nuance and that really helps drive a more successful outcome.
Brad Wyant (38:24)
big learning for me is that I thought, I went to mechanical engineering school, I should know how plumbing and mechanics work, how complicated could it be? Turns out it could be really complicated. There's so many different unique nuances to the systems involved in the building that go beyond what you can learn in the classroom. I was the MEP guy because it was my turn to be MEP guy on a particular project. And thank goodness the company I was working for at the time had a whole
roster of MEP experts on call rotating around different projects nationally, who was able to staff that person to our job for a couple hours a week and school me up on that kind of thing to be able to advance my understanding that way, to be able to be someone who at least knew what I didn't know and learning to speak the language as I went. It's a much more trying challenge and I think a lot of people give it credit for, but
it's a very important one to succeed at because if you don't like it, leaving things undone, not being able to commission when you want to commission. It's just the kind of thing that snowballs and kills the end of a project. Everyone's gunning towards the end of this date. And then you got a commissioning list that you just can't beat. And you're like, well, we got to take stuff apart. We got to do this. We got to do that. It really is the kind of thing that I've seen hurt people on projects.
John Reis (39:35)
And by the time you uncover that type of scenario, Brad, perhaps the installing person is off on the next job or the most gifted of the trades people are off starting the next project to set that project up for success. And you are left with a skeleton crew to do what could be some really challenging work.
Brad Wyant (39:56)
Absolutely, when it's you and another guy sitting there trying to figure out how something works like boy this this wasn't good to figure out earlier. It's a sensation that I never want to have to have again, but it's a it's a good learn it once and never do it again type of lesson as well.
Dee Davis (40:08)
Yeah, the scenario of it's your turn to be the MEP manager person, whatever you want to call it. Every time I hear MEP coordinator, MEP manager, my brain immediately goes back to a project that I was on where I was the mechanical contractor and the GC hired this kid right out of school. I mean, wet behind the ears, second week.
out of school and they designated him as the MEP manager because nobody else wanted to do it. Didn't know anything about mechanical, had no mechanical background at all and no field experience. And it was one of those cases you joke about people say, what's MEP stand for? It was a literal, what's MEP stand for? The kid didn't know. And he did ask me the question, what does it stand for? And I said, boy, we got a lot of work to do here.
you get into these situations with people that don't have the knowledge and the experience where, this happened on that very job where they're out there yelling at the field people pointing at something that's the wrong trade, but they don't know the difference. Pipe is pipe, right?
It's tough when you have folks like that on the job and it's not their fault that they don't know. It wasn't his kid's fault that he didn't know. He was two weeks out of school, but providing that kind of support, like you're talking about to have those MEP gurus that are going around mentoring and helping people is a tremendous resource for you. And if you are working in a company that doesn't have that advocate for it, call me. I'll do what I can to help you call John, call Brad, call one of us.
and will help you get the right people in place and get some technical training that you need because the problems that you can solve just with a little bit of knowledge are pretty incredible. Like it's kind of a powerful feeling. You're like, I know this stuff now. It's very empowering feeling to have that kind of knowledge.
the key problem that you're seeing out there is readiness. this goes back to these are long standing commissioning jokes that are funny, but not funny, where people will post pictures of, got called out to commission this fan today. They told me it was ready and it's half in the box still. It's not connected to electrical. It's just sitting on the roof and not connected to anything.
These things happen for real. One commissioning agent I worked with, their rule was this, and I thought it was a good one. It's a little bit harsh, but it helped, was they had a sign-off sheet for every single piece of equipment. And I've suggested this many times on many projects since then, is you have that sign-off sheet and every trade has to initial and date that they have completed their portion.
and you have to send the commissioning agent that completely signed off and dated document before they show up on your job site to do the work because.
They only get paid to do it once just like you as the contractor only get paid to do it once. If they come out four times and it's still not done, you're gonna get an extra cost.
When I was a commissioning agent, I assumed one and a half times for each piece of equipment because some equip pieces of equipment will be ready the first time. Some won't be ready the third time. So in my estimate, I assumed I was going to have to revisit each piece one and a half times. Is that close to what you guys do?
John Reis (43:20)
it's a very real representation in the field. Really is and we've gone to that sign off as well. Mixed results. perhaps it could be more firm about the requirements to do it. when you're under schedule pressure on the build side and on the professional services side. sometimes you gotta continue to progress forward. Even if you open the door for not accepting that to be signed off.
Dee Davis (43:43)
Yeah.
Brad Wyant (43:43)
Well, when are we not under schedule pressure? I mean, that's the big thing about this all is that if you don't have a conversation with a commissioning agent about what readiness means and about how badly misrepresenting that can derail the project, then the inclination is to say, yeah, it's totally done. And we'll figure it out. So it's there's a misalignment of incentives there if you don't have the information. But if you do know what you're doing, if you do understand how important commissioning is and how easy it is to
set yourself up to succeed, have those conversations in advance. You can really create a lot of value there.
John Reis (44:14)
Well, and think about pick a piece of equipment, right? It doesn't matter. Let's pick an air handler. How many disparate parties touch that? That piece of equipment you've got a manufacturer and maybe that manufacturer was bought out by the construction manager provided by the owner provided by some national agreement. You've got sheet metal portion that put the air handler together and connected sheet metal on both ends of the air handler. You've got the piping.
to the unit, which might be the same contractor, it might be a different contractor, maybe under the same contract, but maybe different sub-arrangement. You got the temperature control contractor, you've got the fire alarm contractor, you've got the electrical contractor. Anymore, we've got a low voltage contractor that's dropping IT to control panels. And if you look at all those parties, it's really easy.
for one or more of those many balls that are in the air being juggled for that one air handler to fall.
Dee Davis (45:06)
Yeah, absolutely. Some of the other big things, and I don't know if you see it as much as I see it on the construction side. Hopefully you don't see it as much as I see it, but schedule. I mean like getting commissioning in the schedule. More schedules than not when I first see them don't even have it in there. It's not even a line item. Or it's coupled with startup startup slash commissioning.
which by the way are two completely different timelines and should not be coupled like that. They're two different things with two different timelines and two different prerequisites. So it's either not present at all or there's a very short period of time clumped altogether at the very end, probably not in the right spot as far as sequential.
we're fighting a losing battle from day one is what happens. And as you mentioned before, everything at the beginning sucks up all of the float in the schedule. And by the time you get to the end, there's not only no float, there's negative float and everybody's scrambling and rushing and there's deadlines and people are screaming and on top of it.
Who's not sick of a job by the time you get to that point? All the construction people are so sick of each other. They just want to finish and move on to the next project. Doesn't make always for the greatest of environments when you get to commissioning.
John Reis (46:28)
All very true. I will tell you that since you the industry is adopted more lean construction and pull planning, it's improved. You're exactly right. Schedule one might have a week at the end of a job. Well, it's going to take a little longer than that. We can start working smarter before then. The pull planning is really made a difference, because I think it's helped a lot of folks on the scheduling side understand there is a logical order of events that we need to put in place.
We can't do anything without power, right? And we can't have temporary cooling without. Chill water. Well, if we can't have chill water, we need condenser water. If we can't have either of those without makeup water and for that pull planning conversation to happen has really improved the scheduling along the way, but certainly not perfect. It's a step in the right direction.
Dee Davis (47:16)
Good, I'm glad to hear that it's improving because I still see far too many schedules with nothing or the combo line item that, nobody wants to pay attention to it at the beginning because it's at the end. Yeah, right. We don't want to pay attention to that right now.
Brad Wyant (47:30)
was going to say that is pretty heartening to hear that people are figuring it out. So John, when an owner is looking for a great commissioning agent, what should they be looking for? What kind of questions should they ask during that conversation?
John Reis (47:40)
I think there's a handful of things What experience do you bring to this project? Tell me about what you see on our project as the owner. What what do you see as challenges on that project? And really, that's not so much a it's not going to be ready, because that's a canned answer. We can. You know we can pretty much put a check on that box. It's really them putting the thought into how how the building may come together. What are the schedule considerations that need to happen?
When I look at any project, I start asking about how is it going to be phased? Is it going to be turned over in a phased manner? Tell me about the parties that are involved and got a project right now where we've got three sets of two electricians working together. Well, how did those parties come together? So engage it in some of those types of questions to understand what their insight is into the building. We'll tell you how engaged they are on the project.
You know, have them tell you about projects they've had of similar builds, complexity, etc. And the challenge they faced and. How they've overcome them, how they were part of the team to overcome them. the world that we live in. Is necessarily full of friction because of disparite interests, right? Everybody's got their own interests along the way, whether that's getting done on time or moving on to the next job or or what have you in our case making the building work.
and putting those interests together and helping be that bridge builder between all those parties. We just rattled off a half a dozen people working on one piece of equipment. How do you build that set of that cohesiveness for a project? How do you engage on resolving issues in a timely manner? Sure, we can go to a job site, write you a list of 250 issues and send you a final bill, but that doesn't get you what you need as the building owner.
So how do you resolve those issues? It really comes down to the most basic cliche of all, it's communication. How do you communicate? How do you resolve issues? How do you handle what can be friction on a job because of different parties and different interests? And understanding that more, how do you fit in with the team? And what do you bring personally, professionally, and as a broader organization is really going to set yourself up for success, Brad.
Brad Wyant (49:52)
Yes, it's like in so many different parts of the construction world being able to communicate being able to look past the words that are being said and understand the person across from you interests and how to best serve those needs it's so complicated even in simple things like. My mom is having some issues with her car for instance and the guy calls her and says hey you know we noticed the last time i had your car for service.
It's got these old coolant hoses that are plastic and they kind of break sometimes. We think you should spend $3,800 with us now, otherwise your car might explode. And she's like, what do mean it might explode? And she reacts emotionally and it's often a very difficult undertaking to bridge the understanding between somebody who just wants the thing to work and somebody who has all the technical expertise to know what that person really wants, but then to convey, here's how I'm going to get you what you want.
in an emotionally comforting manner in a manner that isn't your car might explode, for instance, in this example.
John Reis (50:49)
You know, it's it's it's not uncommon for our persons in the field to be talking with trades people, whether that be the plumber, the sheet metal contractor or fitter and electrician or the construction manager, whether that be a project engineer who's early in their career or a very seasoned project executive or an owner's rep who's been around the block and has a multitude of experience or even executives.
or C suite executives and being able to communicate across that broad spectrum is something that should be really important because eventually that person is probably going have a conversation with most of those parties.
Brad Wyant (51:25)
tough job, a lot of different audiences to prepare yourself for.
Dee Davis (51:28)
And whoever's hiring the commissioning agent, whether it's the owner or the CM or whatever role that person is in, it's important that they give the commissioning agent a point of contact of somebody who can be their advocate, can pound on the desk if necessary and say, hey, these 10 items have been open for two months and who's taking care of this? Let's get this stuff done.
It's very helpful if that person has some understanding of what the systems and equipment are, but that's not necessarily completely required. But it's helpful to understand when the commissioning agent's trying to convey to you, like, this is really an important issue. Sometimes there might be something on the list that maybe is like, well, it would be best if we took care of this now, but it's not really a deal killer. Okay, fine.
But there's stuff on there that might be a really big deal for you later. And it's really important on the owner side or on the CM side to have somebody that they can go to and that they can liaise with that's going to help them get this stuff done. Because they, as the commissioning agent, do not have a contractual relationship with the people that have to do the work. You do. Owner, CM, whoever, you have the contractual relationship.
you have to be the go-between to some extent for the commissioning agent. So it's very important to tag that person on the head, make sure they know who they are, make sure the commissioning agent knows who they are so that they can liaise.
John Reis (52:56)
Yes, yes, having somebody to advocate and enforce the things that are needing to be done is really, really beneficial. In fact, I in the last 48 hours, I've had that exact thing happen where we were having an issue with some open items and I was on an OAC this morning and our contact on the owner side reminded to gently nudge the construction manager to have them provide their contractors to do the work.
And having that relationship has made a big difference on the success of that project.
Brad Wyant (53:26)
Well, John, going back to the beginning of conversation, sounds like you've had a lot of different roles at EEI. You've been able to step from the implementation to the management side with that company. been there a while. What do you think makes EEI different from other commissioning companies?
John Reis (53:39)
I think it's our staff. It's our people make the difference. we've got a broad range of experience that we're bringing to any given project, which means we can draw from them nationally. You I might have a project in a city where I don't have that resource, but I've got that resource available to bring to a site on a teams meeting on a call to engage and lend that expertise. And as we've grown as an organization, we've gotten more and more of those experts along the way. The other part that I would say is.
Our passion is building performance. In fact, it's part of our email now and our website. It's part of our company moniker. It's what we are here to do. It's make buildings perform and what we are here is to drive those issues to resolution. Drive that performance resolution. Understand before building is, you know, started design all the way through post occupancy, how it's going to perform and you know.
push on that performance to get to the best results that we can get. And it's really between the people and that never ending quest for higher building performance is really what sets us apart,
Brad Wyant (54:41)
Thanks for the answer, way cool.
Dee Davis (54:43)
Yeah, I can tell you that everybody that I've worked with at EEI has just been great. They're definitely one of my go-to commissioning agents in the area. And speaking of areas, we have listeners from around the country and even around the world. So what areas does EEI operate in?
John Reis (55:01)
Coast to coast, border to border.
Dee Davis (55:02)
United States.
John Reis (55:04)
Well,
and we also have an office in Mexico City and in Canada.
Dee Davis (55:08)
I didn't know that.
John Reis (55:09)
Yep, that is something that we've expanded upon recently. To broaden our reach. So now we have North American office, our energy and sustainability team has done a significant amount of international work. Really all around the world. I couldn't even tell you all the places that they've been. We've got offices across the country. There's about a dozen offices that we have right now. Our staff right now is.
North of 135 persons and continuing to grow. And last I heard we've got people that reside in about 25 or more different states.
Brad Wyant (55:43)
How can people get in touch with you, John, if they want to ask questions about building, commissioning or get involved?
John Reis (55:48)
You can find me on LinkedIn, John Reis, R-E-I-S, Romeo Echo, India, Sierra. And then you can also email me at jrice at eeibuildingperformance.com.
Dee Davis (55:58)
And his contact information will be put into the show notes so you can just click the link for any of you who are listening or watching. I know EEI has been hiring like crazy and growing like crazy. So for any of you listeners out there who have
what it takes to work for a company like EEI, check out their website. There's lots of job opportunities available. They're growing rapidly. So I know lots of people are out there looking right now. So thank you, John, so much for joining us today. It has been wonderful to have this conversation with you.
John Reis (56:30)
Thank you for the opportunity. greatly appreciate the invite.
Brad Wyant (56:33)
Pleasure to you, John. Such a great conversation. Learned a ton.
Dee Davis (56:35)
Thanks everyone, we'll see you next time.
