Angela Hucker (00:00)
it's leading into why we have a labor shortage because no one's been accountable for building a skilled pipeline. It's why we have a culture issue because unacceptable behaviors have just been accepted and normalized.
And it's why we have the culture problems that we have it feeds into everything. if the small things become normalised, it leads to bigger things happening. So if people are actually held accountable for the small things are actually not okay.
It can prevent the big things.
Dee Davis (00:41)
Good morning and welcome to the Management Under Construction podcast. I'm your host, Dee Davis, and I'm here today with our guest, Angela Hucker. Angela is an amazing voice in the construction industry and she's joining us today all the way from Australia. We have listeners around the world, so I'm sure there's going to be some of your mates in Australia that are going to be listening to us today and we're so happy you're here. Angela, tell us a little bit more about yourself.
Angela Hucker (01:10)
Thank you Dee, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. So I've been in the industry for almost 30 years myself. I started when I was 12 actually working in my family construction business, working as a construction labourer. So you'd find me on weekends and school holidays out labouring in the industry. And it's just interesting now, like here we are all these years later looking back as to where my journey has led me. I've predominantly.
been corporate based, I've been site based and here in Australia as well I've done the fly-in fly-out work working all around Australia on large infrastructure projects. So my experience in the industry is actually contracts management. Let's say it's the part where a lot of fighting happens in the industry because it's you're dealing with the legal and the financials so when you're dealing with money people get quite emotional but predominantly I've always been the only female in the room on a site.
things like that as well. In 2023, it has led me to actually set up my business, which is Epic, which we'll talk more about, to basically have a look at tackling the culture in the construction industry as well. And it's based on my own experience of working in the industry and the issues that I've experienced as a female in the industry. And it's about being a good steward and it's like, well, what can I do now?
from my own knowledge and experiences that I've had to help make this industry better for the next generation.
Dee Davis (02:37)
And
I feel like that's where we get in our careers at a certain point is we get to the point where we feel like we've contributed significantly to the industry for two, three decades. And it's time to start giving back a little bit. I I'm doing that through my company, Yellowstone professional education, where I'm teaching the next generation how to work better in this industry. And you're doing it through Epic.
which stands for empowering people in construction, just in case. You get the honor of our very first international guest on the cast. And I have several more scheduled, but you're the very first one. So you get honor. One of the things that I've noticed in talking to people from around the globe is...
In the United States, we have a tendency to think that everybody else has it all figured out and we're the ones that are just struggling. And I can tell you that that is absolutely not true. The conversations that I've had with Angela, with other people in other countries, just reinforces the fact that we're all in the same boat to some extent. But I would like to know what the top three issues you see the construction industry facing in Australia specifically.
Angela Hucker (03:50)
there is definitely more than three, but the top three is the stuff that people are talking about, which is not just an Australian problem. It's not a US problem. This is actually a global problem that you hear everywhere is the labor shortage, that there's not enough people to actually do the work. My question is then, is why is there a labor shortage?
because that ties into what the other two issues are, which is it comes down to the culture of the industry. The construction industry does not have a very good picture painted as to the culture within the industry. Traditionally, you know, it's stressful environments, there's a lot of pressure, it's hard work, you're doing remote work, you can be working away from your families. There's some very systemic issues in the industry. And then there's also retention issues. So that kind of all
feeds one into the other. There's a huge generational gap at the moment. Here in Australia, construction has never been promoted as a viable career choice, essentially, because it was predominantly all those people who weren't smart enough to get into university would then go down the trades path. And what's happened is because it's then never been promoted as a viable career choice, there's not been that investment for people.
over the decades to get them into trades. And essentially what we've got is an aging generation of skilled trades people. And we don't have that gap in between that's been filled with a pipeline of people to actually replace them. there's a lot of people who are in the over 50s club, myself included, who are then actually moving into the next stage of their life, looking more towards retirement and stuff. Where's the people to come in and do that? So that's where the labor shortage kind of feeds into it. But you then have to look at, well,
Why is there a labor shortage? The industry, to me, it's never been promoted as a welcoming environment, particularly with it being very gender imbalanced as well. Being a female in the industry here in Australia, it's less than 13 % of women who work in the industry. I've been in environments myself where I've been doing fly-in, fly-out work on large projects with about four and a half thousand people on site.
living in camp environments on those projects because they were rural and remote. 2000 people in those camps and there was probably less than 100 women in those environments. So you can imagine that kind of environment and how intense that is. I know these are consistent problems around the globe. As I said, it's not an Australian problem. It's not a US problem. These are global issues with the labor shortage, the culture and the generational gap and the pipeline of
skilled people coming into the industry as well. So there's a few others as well, know, like recognising here in Australia, we have a high migrant population as well. And a lot of qualifications for migrants aren't actually recognised. So we've got migrants who've got masters in engineering and architecture and all these kind of degrees that aren't recognised, so they actually can't be used.
And it's kind of like that's a big gap as well with, you know, how are we actually recognising people who have got trades? What do we need to do to bridge that gap to be able to get those skills recognised, to be able to get them into the industry as well? So, yeah, it's a big boiling pot at the moment of everything that's going on.
Dee Davis (07:15)
Well, that gives remote work a whole new meaning. I actually just did an episode a couple of weeks ago on statistics about remote work. And of course I'm talking about like working from home kind of remote work, because a lot of construction companies are struggling with keeping people on because it's a tough job to do not on the site kind of remote. You're talking about remote work in the context of being in a remote location, trying to bring talent into a remote location.
And we have some of that in the U S also. I just did a proposal for a project in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the United States. And it's this teeny tiny town that has nothing else in it except this giant thing that's being built. There's no housing for people. It's kind of a big deal. The other side of remote work, right. And it's a, it's a problem that if you are trying to build something in an area.
where there's not infrastructure and housing and things to support people to attract that talent, right?
Angela Hucker (08:18)
There's a big problem here in Australia. So just to give some context, last year was the first time ever Australia has actually hit a pipeline of projects valued at over $1 trillion. And it's more than 60 % of those projects because Australia is not as heavily densely populated like the US. Most of our land is desert or regional or rural or remote. More than 60 % of those projects
are in regional and remote locations. And because I've come from that environment of doing, we call it FIFO is the acronym, which is fly in, fly out work. So you'll fly to these remote locations. You'll be on a roster and then you'll come home and you'll have a rest break and R and R break. And then you'll go back again. So most of these locations being in these regional and remote locations, you have to have a high.
FIFO population, which means there's another layer to that that needs to be considered. The people to do that, they have to up and leave their families. They have to up and leave their lives. They're working in these environments where having been in these camp environments as well is extremely overwhelming and extremely isolating. I've been in camps, I've been in little towns around Australia and I've been in cities as well, working on projects and you're going into these environments.
where a little town might be taken over and there's an influx of construction people and they're there for 12 months, 18 months, two years, and then they leave. Then the town is like a ghost town and they're not actually set up for long-term sustainability or to deal with having an increased workforce and then a workforce that goes out. But to be able to attract people to that environment because they don't understand what is actually involved to step
into those environments. I was doing 28 days straight and I would have one day off in 28 days and then I would go home for one week. They've stopped those type of rosters now because it actually increased, unfortunately, the suicide rates here in Australia. So they've reduced them now to two or three week rosters and you have a seven day break or a nine day break, something similar. Everyone's got something different, but they're not doing the four week rosters anymore.
But still you think about people who've got young children, families. We all have a life outside of work. To up and be away from that for weeks at a time and that's your life and you only come home sporadically. There's a lot involved in that. And this is where we've been doing a lot of advocacy work to get 20 of us in front of government with a round table.
to talk to them about the realities of what this type of work involves to be able to attract the workforce that they need. Because you can't make policies unless it comes from an informed decision. And the only way you'll get informed decisions is by engaging with those who've got the lived experience, who've lived and breathed and done this work. And they can actually help guide government with what's needed in that regard. That's a battle I'm still facing, but I'm determined because I'm here to make this industry better.
Watch this space.
Dee Davis (11:34)
And that brings us to Epic. So again, that's empowering people in construction and you focus on topics like encouraging women to come into the industry and retaining them through company culture and wellbeing. What I'm hearing is, yes, it's women, but it's not just women. What can you tell us about Epic?
Angela Hucker (11:52)
So EPIC, it's in the name essentially. So EPIC stands for, as you kindly touched on before, empowering people in construction. So it's not gender specific because I look at everyone equally. We're all people at the end of the day. Yes, you might be a woman, you might be a man, you might come from a different background, you might have different religious beliefs, but at the end of the day, we are all just people. So just look at everyone with that lens because then it's...
it drops the labelling that can go on. So for me, it's about empowering people. Ultimately, our main goal is to help transform the culture in the industry, but it's about creating environments where, like I touched on with all these projects that we've got here in Australia and the labour shortage and the retention issue and the ageing workforce and the culture. It's about creating environments where it is more welcoming for people to come in to the environments.
and that the environments are safe when they get there and they are sustainable. Now that's a very big picture, of course, because there's so many parts to that. But the main thing is, is that we look at, you know, are the workplaces inclusive for everyone? Not just women, but for everyone. Obviously being a woman, I look at it from a female lens, but also a policy shouldn't just be things that are on paper.
Where's the accountability and people being held accountability for stuff as well. The wellbeing is a huge part of it. Unfortunately, here in Australia, it's the number one industry for mental health issues. Every second day, someone will die from suicide in construction. So there's a lot of things in that space because of the environment that they're in. So the wellbeing is a big part of it. We're very big on making sure people are supported. It's not just about throwing them into the lion's den.
It's about making sure that where they're going, is actually safe. Three key things, respected, valued and supported, but really getting to the root cause of what drives the cultures as well. So there's a lot in that space with culture. So it's a big beast. I often get asked, why did you take on something? But I go, well, why not? Because if I don't do it, who else is going to do it?
Dee Davis (14:10)
Well, it's a little like taking the whole world onto your shoulders, but somebody's got to fight the fight. And I think you are not alone. There's a lot of organizations and individuals out there who are advocating for the same things that you're talking about. episode last year on mental health in the construction industry, and we use some U S statistics in the U S it's like four times higher than any other industry in the U S very few people in our industry get to escape being touched.
by suicide or other mental health, drug abuse, alcohol abuse issues in the industry. It's something that I think a lot of people are starting to pay more attention to and it's still uncomfortable. It feels squishy, like everybody hold hands and sing kumbaya. But the reality is, is call it squishy or call it whatever you want. It's a real issue.
Workplace violence in the construction industry is overwhelming. did a special episode last year when Amber Zek was killed at her workplace. And then a couple of years before that, had Audie Hicks killed at a job site. Sometimes it's the, it's the person's own mental health and their suicide involved. And other times it's coworkers. Our people are having a hard time coping out there and we've got to do what we can to help them.
Angela Hucker (15:30)
Absolutely.
Dee Davis (15:31)
When we talked earlier, talked about the construction industry doesn't always feel safe for women and particularly in the environment that you just described where you're flying out to a camp, you're in a remote area. It reminds me of when I was in the military, most of the time we would get deployed out into these remote areas for weeks and weeks at a time. And I was out there with hundreds of men. Fortunately, I did not have any issues, but a lot of my sisters did.
Listening to you describe that situation sounds very much like being deployed out in the field when you're in the military. Instances of workplace violence for women is three times that what it is for men. In the U.S., I'm not quite sure what that number is worldwide, the burden is on all of us to keep each other safe. So is the best thing that you can do as a coworker in these kinds of environments to create a safe environment.
Angela Hucker (16:28)
Good question. And it's something that's needed. So I'm not sure if you have the same terminology in Australia. So we call it bystander and upstander here. So if you're someone and you're there and you're seeing this, and it could be something simple as just like a joke or a comment or something that's set in passing that is not appropriate and could be perceived to be harassment or discrimination.
or bullying or things like that, because it's the little actions that end up leading to the big actions. And the thing is, is that if we normalise the little actions and we become complacent with the little actions, then it's actually opening up the door for the big actions to happen, which is what would have happened in Amber's case as well. There was a pattern of behaviour because things don't just happen. There's a pattern that happens in this regards. So it's actually being able to have the courage.
can sometimes be a little difficult. Like I understand that. And especially if you come from a minority background as well, I have dealt with these instances I've touched on. But being an upstander or bystander is someone who is there and who will actually stand up for the person who's actually experiencing that and calling it out and just saying, hey, that's not cool. Like, you know, don't talk to that person that way or...
You know, that's inappropriate or what do think you're doing? Just breaking the pattern. I had broke about this in my Ted talk. The theme of my talk is that your voice is the most powerful tool that you've got. And that's for everyone because your voice is the power to actually break the pattern. And it's having that courage to be able to do it. Now, courage doesn't mean that you're being rude or you're being disrespectful or you're being aggressive towards the other person.
It's just saying that is not okay and being able to not accept these types of behaviors. And it's being aware of what is actually happening around you. So I was really lucky in one of my instances where in the camp environment and I had someone trying to force their way into my room one night. I passed 40 guys having a barbecue. I went to my room and I jumped into bed.
Next minute I had someone trying to break into my room to get to me. Honestly, I can say hand on heart. It was one of the most scariest moments in my life because here I am in a woman in an environment which felt like prison. It is like a prison because you've got razor wire fences all around you. You're in these double story buildings with just room by room by room stacked together. And then I've got someone trying to force their way into my room who'd been drinking and
People can get a little bit crazy when they're like that. And I just was in the most vulnerable position ever. The next day when I reported it to my construction manager and I just said, look, I'm just letting you know, this is what happened last night. I don't know what to do. They actually took the charge, which was really good. And this is where for any of the male listeners out there, it's not about you guys being saviors, but it's actually about you making sure that you're creating the environments that are safe.
for others and that you're stepping up and you're being an ally to help support because that is valuable as well. Don't be the jerk, be the ally. That's what I would say because it was in that moment, like honestly, that was a breaking point for me where it's like, do I stay and keep working or do I go? And if I went, it actually probably would have been leaving the industry. And that's where my male allies was so important.
they stepped up, they said you have to report this, you need to do this. We went through an investigation process. I found myself in the project director's office and he actually didn't know what to do. And he asked me the question like, Ange, what do want me to do? And I had to frame it to him in a way that he could understand. And I just said to him, well, if it was your wife at home and someone was trying to force their way into your house to get to your wife, how would you feel about it?
So I wasn't rude, wasn't aggressive, I wasn't emotional or anything like that, but I had to frame it in a way. I had my superintendent with me at the time and he was like, what do you want? And the end result was I ended up being moved to a room that was right by security. But my superintendent stood up in that moment and he said, and I want three of us put in the rooms right next to her so that if anything like this happens again, we are right there and we can.
help protect her. That's what kept me on that project and in the industry. And when you look back as to where it's led me to today, that's why I do the work that I do and why I established Epic because I do not want people to have to be in that environment and experience it. But this is where it's so important for, you know, people around.
to actually step up. Use your voice, be courageous, call it out, say that this is not appropriate. Don't normalise things that should not be normalised.
Dee Davis (21:41)
Right. And, and that's called allyship. I heard that term for the very first time, gosh, maybe four or five years ago. And I think of the terms much older than that, but that was the first time that I had heard it. And I was like, what in the world is that? It doesn't even sound like a real word, but that's described. And thank you so much for sharing that story. My gosh, that's terrifying. The Navy and me. My first thought is, well, in that situation, I would want to be armed.
I guess having been in the military, we always were armed. So that has something to do with it too, or at least in the environments that I was in. I always felt like I could defend myself if I ever needed to in that way. But in, on a construction site, obviously you're not going to be harmed on a construction site. I've been by myself in, you know, big dark construction sites and you know, various places before. I don't know if you want to share this or not, but
It's interesting when they say, what do you want out of this? Well, what I want is I want that person out of here. I want that person identified and gone.
Angela Hucker (22:47)
I don't come here to be violated. I've come here to work. And there was a whole bunch more to it. The harassing looks, the harassing comments and the different things. I stood out in that environment. I'm a tall red head with less than a hundred women in a camp of 2,000 blokes. I stick out everywhere I go being a tall red head.
But I don't go to work to be violated. I go to work to do my job. That's it. I'm not one of those women who might be a little bit free and easy and nothing against that if that's what floats your boat, but that's not me. And I just said, you've got a duty to protect me. Like this is actually still, even though it's a camp, the camp is on the side and it's still classed as part of the project. You've got a duty to protect me. So do your job.
Dee Davis (23:31)
again, what are they there for? We all go to work to do a job. And I say that on the cast an awful lot. I'm here to do a job. That's it. I'm not here for your entertainment here for any other purpose. The people that I work with are my colleagues and my brothers. I'm very, very close to some of the wonderful, awesome men that with. very good friends of mine. You're at workforce seven in that environment.
to not feel safe at work is not acceptable for anyone. And I can tell you that men have these situations too. How many times have you been on a job where people get physically attacked, fistfights? I've seen it. Many times.
Angela Hucker (24:14)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, the guys may not have it in that way, but I have seen it time and time and time again. It's more of the bullying and the discrimination. Absolutely. The bullying that some of the guys do and they can be, excuse me, but they can be assholes sometimes with what they do, like really quite nasty and vindictive to other guys. And it's just, it blows my mind because I just...
don't understand why people have to be so unkind to others. If I was in the other person's shoes, how would I feel? And I always look at things from that way. What would I feel if this was happening to me? That's what more people need to be doing, I believe. the shoe on the other foot and see how you would feel. And then would you like that happening to you? Probably not.
Dee Davis (25:05)
Yeah, well, it's again, very clear that on both sides of the planet, we're experiencing the same problems. Nobody has this all figured out near as I can tell. Women and men of the same retention issues due to bullying and hostile work environments. I know you've done a ton of research on this. Did you have anything else to add on that topic?
Angela Hucker (25:28)
I talk to a lot of people around the globe and it is that common theme of the bullying. It's the aggressiveness of like site behaviors as well that happens. I'm going to call it for what it is, but there's also really poor leadership, which leads into the stuff as well. There's people who are being put into positions that they're not trained to do. And when you think about the military, where you've come from, Deet.
You don't get put into a leadership position unless you've effectively done your leadership training and you've earned that stripe. And there's no guarantee that you'll be made a leader even after that as well, because you still have to go through the ropes and earn that position. It doesn't happen in construction.
If there's an empty space, people get put into these positions and then these leaders are not armed with the emotional intelligence, the skills, the tools as to how to effectively lead a team properly. And then that filters down because that's when the stress, the pressure, everything feeds into it. And it's like the cancer that just spreads through everyone and it impacts everyone. It is not isolated to women. It is not isolated to men. It goes across the board. Like I'm seeing that people aren't leaving construction.
because they don't enjoy the work, it's basically because of how they've been treated. This whole toughen up mentality and even what we spoke about earlier with the mental health issues and stuff like that, that's coming a bit more normalized now, but this has been something that has been in the industry for decades and decades and decades because guys have not actually been given permission.
to say, I'm not okay, I'm not feeling okay. And to have safe spaces where they can talk about it. And being in the environments that I've been in, particularly in FIFO for some projects where I was the only woman for a period of time and actually seeing what the guys were dealing with in those environments, being away from home, dealing with the long hours, there's family issues happening at home and they might be 12 hours away.
and they can't actually get home to sort that out. It could be marriage breakdowns. could be that, you know, here they are. This was actually quite a common one that here they are working and they're earning the good money. Meanwhile, the partner is at home and spend, spend, spend, spend, spend and they come home and there's no money. And it's like, where's all the money gone to? Like here I am.
busting my ass and then there's no money. Like the mortgage hasn't been paid off. There's bills, we've got credit card debt and it's all this kind of stuff that adds to it as well. with the experience that I've had of being in this and supporting the people that I've supported and even to this day, like I support so many people in this industry. I always have a call to action. If you need help, just reach out because I do not want anyone in this industry to feel like they don't have.
someone there that they can contact because I have seen what happens when people are in these environments, they're dealing with the pressure, they don't have someone they can talk to, what path do they go down? And unfortunately it's not a healthy one.
Dee Davis (28:40)
Absolutely, and there's little microcosms of construction where people in the US deal with some of the same remote or working away from home type situations where you're talking about, work heavily in the pharmaceutical industry and we all go where the work is. And sometimes that's around the country, sometimes that's around the globe. So you can be away from home for weeks or months at a time.
away from your family, like you're talking about, and the folks that do, do oil and gas are the same thing. They go out to an oil field for long periods of time. And it's all, again, being in the military, you're just gone. When I was in the military, my ex-husband was also in the military. So I've been on both sides of it. It is way more in the one that's leaving than the one that's left. Being the one that's left, particularly if you have young kids is very, very stressful on the family.
and the financial strain and all that. So all of those contribute into whether or not that person can just go to work and focus on making a living or if they have a thousand other things going on in their head.
Angela Hucker (29:45)
that point is I absolutely have empathy for the partners who are at home because essentially you are like a single parent. Like I know that you are like a single parent because you're doing everything. You've got no, you don't have the other partner there to do it. And so I have seen it from both sides, like with the partners being at home and running the household and raising the kids and having to do everything and cook all the meals and all the activities for the kids and things like that.
And then I've seen it from the guys' sides as well. And like I know for a lot of guys that I've worked with is that they then get home, especially when we were working four weeks, like we were exhausted. For me, it would take me three days to rest and do nothing and just be a slug on the lounge to recover after 28 days straight to then start to feel normal. And I just, I could really sympathize with the guys when they were getting home, because then at the partner's day was like, yay, you know, now I've got some help. Okay, you can do this, you can do that, you can do that.
Whereas the partners just work for 28 days straight. I can see how these environments unfortunately leads to really high divorce rates as well.
Dee Davis (30:55)
My poor family has been on the other side of that where I'm working away and flying home on the weekends and I'm too exhausted and too cranky, too helpful or nice to anyone.
Angela Hucker (31:08)
Yeah, you want the brain to just not do anything. It's like you've been boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, go, go, go, go, go for all this time. It's like, just give me some space to just not think, do interact, talk to anyone. I just need that space, please.
Dee Davis (31:25)
Yeah, yeah, nobody's having fun in those situations, I'm afraid. not at They are tough. I know in the conversations that you and I've had, accountability is a big consideration for you. How would you like to see employers be more accountable for creating better and safer environments for their employees? Look.
Angela Hucker (31:45)
This is a big one. This is a big one because this is what I believe is the core thing that is leading in to the crisis that we're seeing right now, is this accountability. So it's leading into why we have a labor shortage because no one's been accountable for building a skilled pipeline. It's why we have a culture issue because unacceptable behaviors have just been accepted and normalized.
And it's why we have the culture problems that we have and the aging workforce as well. it feeds into everything. So accountability is huge. Like we touched on earlier about if the small things become normalised, it leads to bigger things happening. So if people are actually held accountable for the small things are actually not okay.
It can prevent the big things. And it's kind of like when you think about your safety matrix with your near misses and your LTIs and your MTIs and all those kinds of things about how many you have, because it's like how many near misses you have, you'll have so many, but if you don't report them, then it can actually lead to like an LTI or an MTI, right? So this is actually no different. It can be the psychological stuff that can lead down different routes. can lead down legal routes and...
mental health issues and psychological issues. Accountability is huge, but accountability absolutely starts at the top with leadership. And leaders have to be held accountable for the culture that they are shaping because they're the ones who set the tone for a company. And that's not just at the supervisory level, it sits right at the top from board level all the way down. Like this is not
a person on the ground issue, it's not a supervisor issue. This is actually an issue that everyone has to be responsible for. And it's more than just having, I call them the fluffy things. So the fluffy things like a campaign or a poster or a statement or a polity, they're just words on paper. They mean absolutely zero without accountability. There's simple things that people can do. Like I have a look at
tracking retention data? Are they doing exit interviews and are the exit interviews actually done in a way that is safe for the person exiting where they can openly and honestly discuss why they are exiting because that is value and that is actually highlighting where the issues are.
Because here in Australia, construction is sitting at about 25%, 30 % attrition rate. We've got some major projects that's actually at about 50 % attrition rate. You think about that, if you're sitting on a board or you're a CEO, the cost of one person leaving can be at least $150,000. And you've got a 50 % attrition rate. How many millions of dollars could that be that you're losing from just people walking out the door?
You know, it should be no different to a safety issue. You would do an investigation. You would understand what's going on. You've got safety metrics. It should be no different to budgets on a project. You've got a budget. You know what's happening. How is your budget tracking? No different to your reporting to your shareholders. You've got to report this. You've got to report that. Why is this stuff not done? And it's that accountability.
to be able to go, what is it that we're doing? How can we understand it? And how can we hold our people accountable? And I mean, everyone accountable. It should be part of KPIs, you know, cause you can't manage what you don't measure. If you're not measuring these kinds of things, how can you manage them? But you need to understand what is actually going on and people need to be held accountable for tracking it, measuring and enforcing it. That's the big part is the enforcement.
I'm not sure if it happens in the US, but we have a big thing here. call it the shut up and payout, which is where people actually do speak up and it doesn't align with how the leader is. We might make you redundant, but we're just going to say that we no longer have a position available for you and we're going to give you an NDA, a non-disclosure agreement. So we'll pay you a sum of money to shut you up.
And what that does then is it's actually saying that it's okay for people to behave inappropriately for whatever reason. So there's a lot of instances of harassment cases, bullying cases, all sorts of different things that happen. I'm not saying all the time, but they can be done by people in senior positions or leadership positions. But because that person as a leader is more valued than a worker.
So the easiest way to do it is just shut them up and pay them out and keep the person who instigated the unhealthy behaviors. That should not be accepted at all. And this is where boards and executives need to actually have stronger accountability for this. like really looking at this across the board, what is actually going on? Cause it's only then honestly, until people are held accountable, it's only then that things are actually going to start to change.
Dee Davis (37:13)
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I've witnessed it happen where somebody had reported sexual harassment, bullying, different things like that. And I couldn't say if anybody was paid off. I can tell you that the whole thing was swept under the rug. Nothing happened. The people were just put in different places. I went and gave my statement and that was the last I ever heard of it. scene happened.
to anyone in any of those circumstances. And it was kept very, very quiet because the companies don't want anyone to know about these things because it makes them look bad. And so they keep it very quiet. They sweep it under the rug and that is not acceptable.
Angela Hucker (38:00)
It's not acceptable. And this is the issue is that they're actually normalizing it. They're actually going, this is okay. Our risk strategy is just to sweep it under the rug, put a non-disclosure agreement, give that person a non-disclosure agreement and pay them a sum of money to shut them up. And when people actually understand the implications of what is involved with a non-disclosure agreement, like you are literally zipped for life.
And this is why the accountability is so important.
Dee Davis (38:36)
If you like what you're hearing so far, don't forget to boop the like button. Share this episode with a friend.
In your practice, you provide coaching for mid-level managers. Can you tell us about that piece of your business and why it's important?
Angela Hucker (38:50)
Yes, thanks Dee. As we touched on before, it's so important. So that part of the business ties into ultimately the retention and the culture. So when you think about your mid-level managers, the mid-level managers are the most influential people in a company, but they're often the one who's most overlooked when you think about it. So they sit in that middle part. So they're responsible for leading the people beneath them. They're responsible for reporting up.
to executives and then they also have to interface with a number of other mid-level managements, especially on a construction project, because you'll have all the different teams and stuff. So you need, you've got all your different stakeholders that you need to interact with. So that position, I would say probably has the most pressure out of any position in construction. Now, the reason why it's so important for them is because they're essentially the cog in the wheel.
because they're dealing with everything around them. And there's so many people who are put into these positions. And I've seen a number of it over my time where a leading hand has been promoted to a supervisor and they do that transition from blue collar to white collar and then it shifts. So they may have great technical abilities as a leading hand, but then you move them into a supervisory position.
And what training are they given to then lead a team? Because a leading hand obviously works with the supervisors and is more of a support person to the supervisor. But then when you're a supervisor and you're leading crews, what skills are you given to effectively lead these people? So that's where I've recognized this is a big gap of what's happening with that capability piece. And it's the simple things. It's things like how to communicate.
Cause people in this position, cause they're dealing with so much pressure, may not know how to communicate in a way that is helpful or healthy to others. Cause they just want to get the stuff done cause they're trying to move on and do other things as well. How do they handle conflict management? How do they handle people? How do they handle being able to build those high performing teams to make sure they're getting the best out of everyone? Cause they haven't necessarily had to think about that as a leading hand, but as a supervisor.
You need to know how to plan the works. Who's the best person to do that? Who's going to support them best? Where can I reduce the conflict in the team? They've got a hell of a lot of accountability going up as well, because they're reporting up. Being able to have those really difficult conversations, because at the end of the day, you're managing people and people are an interesting bunch. So if they all come to work with their own issues and stuff, how do you have those difficult conversations?
How do you have the check-ins with them? How do you manage things before they get to a formal complaint? I say they are the most pivotal people that can make or break a culture in a company because they're the ones who actually have the power to influence the people underneath them, influence the people above them, be able to report about what's actually happening.
They're the ones who set the tone on site as well as to how things are done. But they are also the key with dynamics and the issues. And if we go back to harassment and bullying and discrimination and all that kind of stuff, they're the ones who can actually set the tone as to whether those behaviors are normalized or whether they're called out because they will create the space. And this is why it is so incredibly important.
for companies to understand investing in them is what's actually going to move the dial for them in their business because of the position those mid-level managers hold. Yes, a lot of people do the executive leadership coaching and stuff and that's good, but these mid-levels, they're critical. They are critical to the culture, the tone, what's happening on the ground, what's happening going up, all that kind of stuff. When you think about it at the end of the day,
People don't leave companies. People leave managers. And I'm sure every single person will be able to know if they've had a good manager or a bad manager, and they will always remember the bad manager because of what that person was like and how they treated them and how they made them feel. So if we can strengthen those people, it actually helps strengthen the organization overall.
which then ties into being able to help with retention, being able to help with culture. And it's just so important. It's not just something that's theory. It is just so important to invest in these people.
Dee Davis (43:48)
Yeah, absolutely. business is building things, installing things, creating things, but our business is really people because without the people doing the work, none of this can happen. The field is the most important people. It starts out in the field and it works its way all the way through and up to the CEO and back down again to that apprentice down in the field trying to get the work done.
It ties into company culture. It ties into mental health of every single person in the workplace. And as you mentioned before, the business consequence is that revolving door of turnover and low productivity and unhappy employees, which means unhappy customers, which results in lower margins. 1000 % of this comes back to money people.
It is either going to help us gain financially or help us lose financially. And after all, we are all in the business of making money. All of this is so that we can go home and earn enough money. They can make a profit in our business. That's what we're here to do. If you asked us all to come and do this voluntarily every day, I don't think most people would show up for work. the statistics on turnover.
You mentioned the cost to replace somebody that leaves. It's three X what you're paying them. Whatever you're paying them, if they walk out the door, it's going to cost you three times that to replace them. So think about that. Every time you think about somebody leaving your business and what that turnover rate is, think I'm a thousand percent on board for tracking a turnover rate in a company. If any has extremely low turnover rate, they're doing something right.
have a barrage of people walking out your door, you're doing something wrong and you need, so what is your advice for people out there who are struggling to make change inside their own organization?
Angela Hucker (45:48)
I say change doesn't happen overnight. And when we think about this industry, the systemic things that we're seeing, they didn't happen overnight. And I know they are not going to be fixed overnight. When you think about culture, it's not something that's going to be fixed overnight. But just do one thing. What's one thing you can do to start making a difference? There's the 1 % up because when you think about 1 % of what you can change,
That over time is huge. It may be just having a look at the diversity on your team. Have you actually got diversity or does everyone look the same? Is everyone being heard in a meeting or is it just the same people talking the same stuff and you're having the same conversations and there's no diversity of even voice? Just as an example, what is one thing that you can do?
You know, is there safe reporting pathways for people to be able to address issues? Are you doing exit interviews? You know, where is the data that you've got to understand the makeup of your company? Because we have data like I touched on for safety. We have data for projects and budgets. We have data for all different things. Is there data that you've got to understand the culture?
in your business, because if you've got some data, then that is actually going to do that. Run whole surveys, like confidential, safe and independent, not done within the company, whole surveys to actually gauge how all the employees actually feeling and then be accountable for what they report back. Don't leave them high and dry that they've poured their heart out to someone.
And I'm just saying this because I've actually been involved in poll surveys where then the company doesn't do anything and you sit there and you go, well, that was a waste of effort, wasn't it? But do something about it. Like that is such value when you've got people actually bringing you the information and it's done in a way that's anonymous as well. So you can't target people, but you can go, holy shit, like we've got an issue here. Like let's actually work out what we need to do. Bring people into the conversation.
You'll get more buy-in when there's collaboration and communication, when people are actually co-designing improvements and change. So, you know, the other thing as well, be consistent. There's a lot of C's there, but be consistent. Consistency with behaviors, consistency with, don't be this up and down yo-yo type of thing. Like just be consistent that you're a steady wheel and you know what to do.
But just one thing, pick, there's so many things you could do. Like I've just racked off a whole heap there, but just one thing, pick one thing you can do, implement it, see what happens, see what changes come in and then go, okay, cool. What else do we need to do? But you have to make the decision. I find too many people get caught in this, you know, they've got to have forums and they've got to have committees and they've got to have meetings and they've got to have pre-meetings for the meetings and post-meetings and all this kind of stuff to talk about stuff, but...
You got to take action like nothing happens without action. So just take action, do one thing, try it. Cause who knows it might be the thing that turns your business around and stops you losing people where you've actually then got more money in your company rather than walking out the door. Just do something that's fine.
Dee Davis (49:23)
We have a number of taglines on the cast. What could go wrong? We've got a few like that. think do something, do something. Another tagline that we're going to grab onto. love that because there's so many organizations out there that they talk the talk. They do not walk the walk. They don't make decisions. They don't take action. They don't do anything. You brought up a couple of times, exit interviews, and I have a visceral reaction.
whenever somebody mentions exit interviews, because here's my experience. You didn't listen to me when I worked here. Now walking out the door and all of a sudden you want to know why I'm leaving? Why would I think you're going to listen to me now? Listen to me while I worked here and still be working here. I think exit interviews can work.
I think they do work in some organizations when they're done right. People leave organizations for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes it's personal reasons that have nothing to do with the organization. Listen, I guess, is my response to that is you must be willing to listen and genuinely want to know the answer to the question. If you ask a question that you don't really want to know the answer to and you're going to ignore it and it's going to get filed in some piece of paper, which is exactly what
one organization that I'm thinking of, I refused to answer any of questions in the exit interview because I was like, this is ridiculous. I know you don't care. and, if I tell you anything you don't want to hear, you're just going to say, you know, bitter ex-employee like what? And, and that's what I think a lot of people feel about exit interviews. And unfortunately I've talked to an awful lot of people who have a lack of confidence around surveys.
I've been trained to do surveys. I've executed surveys for my internally, for external clients. And there's absolutely a way to make sure that these things are anonymous. Sometimes when the organization is small, to hide who's saying what. And I've had an awful lot of people tell me, well, it's supposed to be an anonymous survey, but my boss comes to me and tells me, hey, you didn't fill it out yet. How do they know that? Those stuff definitely happens.
As a note to managers and organizational leaders who might be listening to this, you've got to do this stuff with integrity. You've got to these fact-finding missions with integrity, with an open heart, with an open mind, and you must listen and you must want to hear the answer even if the answer is something you don't want to hear.
Angela Hucker (52:07)
correct, there's a saying, can I, and it's not can I, but it's an acronym for constant and never ending improvement. So how can you constantly be improving if you're not seeking that feedback? And the feedback may be uncomfortable and it may be something that you're not prepared to hear, but you can't address a problem unless you know what the problem is. So you've got to start with that awareness. And if someone is actually willing to give you awareness of an issue,
You have to be accepting of that and then go, okay, look at it like an opportunity, not as a failing. Look at it as an opportunity where it's like, wow, we didn't realize that. This person's giving me a gift and an opportunity to help make my business better. That's what I'm going to do rather than taking it personal and as an attack. It's an opportunity for you to do things better.
Dee Davis (52:57)
I love that point of view because we got to take our egos out of it as leaders and we have to check our egos out the door and we have to come in with an open heart and mind and listen to what our people are really saying to us because make us better leaders. It'll make our organizations better and more profitable, which is what we all want.
Angela Hucker (53:20)
Correct. Exactly. That's right.
Dee Davis (53:23)
You've been interviewing lots of industry people from around the world for your work. What has been the key takeaways from these interviews?
Angela Hucker (53:32)
I tell you, this has been a gift to me. Interview people and you get some real insights. it's been amazing listening to people. The criteria was they had to have been in the industry for at least 20 years. So on average, most of them were sitting about the 28, 30 year mark. We had people who'd been 45 years and I had people from the US, from Canada, from Australia, from the UK, from the Middle East. The biggest takeaways is that.
The location doesn't change what the challenges are that is happening at the moment. So like we touched on, there's the skill shortages, there's the retention issues, there's the culture challenges, there was the mental health concerns. It just kept coming up and up again. But what I've also noticed is that there are so many people, like every single one of these 50 people that I interviewed, genuinely care.
about this industry. And they're all in leadership positions in some form, but they are leaders who genuinely care about this industry and doing their own bit to help make this industry better in their own way. These are not people who are necessarily public facing or anything like that. I call them silent leaders. And the advice and wisdom that they shared was amazing.
A very common thread that came up was culture. It just came up in pretty much all the conversations, culture, because we had quite a few migrants. I had Aboriginal people. I had a 50-50 split of male and female. So I made it as diverse as I could. And culture was the main thing that came up. We had male allies. It was incredible. This is actual pure gold right here from the insights that we got from these.
humans is we are collating that into a construction leadership report that we can present to government. No one's done a construction leadership report here in Australia. You know, and when you think 50 people, a minimum of 20 years experience, that's over a thousand years worth of knowledge that you can't get out of a textbook. It's lived experience, people boots on the ground, actual real experience. So that's why we're collating that as reports that we can then put to government.
to then be able to show government what the common themes are and what the takeaways are and what needs to happen for this industry to move it forward. But the thing is, it's a global issue. It's not isolated to Australia. It's not isolated to the US. And for me, if we can do our part to then help share this wisdom and knowledge that I've been able to collect, it's going to benefit the industry as a whole.
That's my way of helping to give back to the industry as well.
Dee Davis (56:23)
That's wonderful. Are you going to publish that anywhere out for the universe to read besides the Australian government?
Angela Hucker (56:30)
look, it will be published and it will be out. What that looks like yet, I don't know. We're busy writing the final chapters at the moment, so we've got 10 parts to it, 10 different chapters on 10 different themes that came up across the interviews. The intent is to get the cut through to the government to get them to listen.
But I interviewed a number of academics as a result of that as well, so I will lean on them to go, how can we actually get this published as a white paper or something like that that can get out to the universe and be accessible more broadly as well.
Dee Davis (57:06)
And you can rely on me to do my part to get that word out when it's done and ready and promote that because that's something that the entire construction industry around the world can benefit from. And that's exactly the kind of thing that we need. So I'm very excited. Do you have a ballpark idea of when?
Angela Hucker (57:27)
We are aiming to have it fingers crossed before Easter, which is the first week in April. So we're hoping by the end of March, it will depend on how long the peer reviews take with reviewing what we've drafted. So we're just drafting the final three chapters at the moment, and that will give us our 10 chapters and then we'll undertake a number of peer review assessments and however long that takes. But we're aiming for the end of March.
I'll keep you updated Dee and I appreciate your support with that.
Dee Davis (57:57)
year in 2026.
Angela Hucker (57:59)
Yeah, like six weeks, exactly.
Dee Davis (58:02)
You've got to be very busy working on that. So thank you so much for taking the time to do this episode with us today. You do have your very own podcast on top of everything else called You Are Epic. So I encourage our listeners to go ahead and check it out. She talks about tons of different topics in the industry. A lot of the folks that she's talking about that she interviewed, their episodes are in there.
You talk in there a lot about allyship, which we hit a little bit. Again, allyship is, a little bit of saying, Hey, that's not cool, but it's also speaking positively about your colleagues in rooms that they aren't in, which is what we all need to help one another in the industry. Did you have any final thoughts for our listeners?
Angela Hucker (58:51)
We've spoken about a lot of stuff and I would like to just clarify at the very end. I've been in this industry for almost 30 years and the work I'm doing now is about giving back to the industry. I choose to no longer be on sites doing the work that I was doing, but it's more about what can I do to help make the industry better for the next generation and those coming in. So that's what I'm really passionate about at the moment, really passionate about making sure.
people are welcomed, it's safe and that they're supported once they're there. I love the industry. It's served me incredibly well. The experiences I've had, the projects I've worked on, the people I've connected with, you know, there's, you're always going to get good eggs and bad eggs wherever you go, but I've made some truly amazing friendships and have this army of brothers all around Australia as a result of the work that I've done. And I'm very blessed to.
have had the opportunities and the experiences I've had as well. The industry is quite rewarding. It's amazing when you see something go from a field of nothing and then suddenly 12 months, 18 months later, there's this monstrosity of whatever it is there, whether it's a wind farm or a solar farm or a power station or whatever it is. And then you drive past it years later and you go, wow, you have this really proud moment where it's like.
And I didn't physically build it, of course, but you're involved in it, but you have this moment where it's like, wow, I was involved in that. Like how cool is that? So the industry has its moments. It has its challenges. I'm not going to deny that, but it also has the rewards as well. And that's something that I would really like people to be mindful of as well. is rewarding industry and there are some incredible people in this industry and incredible people, really, really passionate about making this better.
you for all of those out there doing their own little bit, thank you. Because when you actually put that all together, it's huge. So thank you to everyone, even you Dee, for what you're doing with getting information like this out to people. So it is very powerful.
Dee Davis (1:00:54)
Thank you so much and thank you for all you've done for our industry and continue to do. How can people best contact you?
Angela Hucker (1:01:03)
So I'm very active on LinkedIn. Please look me up, Angela Hucker. I am super active on there. I always have my DM open. You can reach out to me on the Epic website, which is epicservices.group and my email, which is angela at epicservices.group. And always welcome to hearing from people, conversations, connecting through a chat, hearing what people are up to, what they're doing. Look forward to chatting anyone who'd like to.
Dee Davis (1:01:31)
That's great. And we'll get all your contact information put in the show notes so that people can just click on it and reach you easily. Thank you so much for joining us. Please like and share this episode with a friend. Reach out to us if you've got comments or questions. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next time.
