Irene Walsh Garcia (00:00)
when I first started,
knowing that I was going to stand out as a woman in the trades, I made some rules for myself and that went a long way towards setting up myself for success. one of them was I would not turn down a request for whatever job I was supposed to do if I thought a journey man or any man would do it. If I thought this is something that
was a reasonable request, this is something within my job, I would do it. I started out being terrified of heights, small spaces, actually electricity, and all of the things. I had so much fear starting out. But I promised myself I would not let those fears hold me back. I had so many different situations where I had to suck it up, be like, okay, no,
this is a completely reasonable request, this is something I have to be able to do. And then I would do it.
Dee Davis (01:01)
Good morning and welcome to the management under construction podcast. I'm your host Dee Davis, and I am joined today by an icon in the industry, Irene Walsh Garcia. Now I got to be honest, Irene and I have never actually met in person. We are LinkedIn buddies. She's always got so much great stuff to say and talk about with what's going on in the industry. I just had to hook up with her and invite her to be on the cast. So welcome Irene.
joining us on the show. Yeah, thanks for being on the show and tell us a little bit more about yourself.
Irene Walsh Garcia (01:29)
Thank you, Dee Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, so this year marks 27 years in the construction industry. That's when I started my electrical apprenticeship and, wasn't sure what was going to happen, if I get in, if I like it. And here I am, 27 years later and I have built quite the career for myself between, working in the field for six years and working for 20 plus years on the project management side.
and having just had so many great but also challenging experiences during the time, but more importantly, connecting with so many amazing people. really construction is about the people. I always make a point, anytime during my career, I was always excited to see another woman on the job site, whether that was in a meeting or physically working with the tools. And I always wanted to just to talk and get to know people. And I've learned so much through those conversations.
and so glad to share more about that today.
Dee Davis (02:27)
That's awesome, thank you. I love when we first met, you shared with me a little bit about your family history in the industry. Could you just tell us a little bit about your family history in the industry and why you chose to start your career with a tool bag?
Irene Walsh Garcia (02:41)
it wasn't my first choice. Honestly, I went to college because that's what even though I have a long history of family in the construction industry, specifically on the electrical side, it never occurred to me to actually try to get into construction. And so I went the kind of the traditional college route and I finished it with a plan to go to law school. But I worked for a law firm long enough to realize that was not the path for me.
And then here I was sitting there with a degree I no longer knew what to do with. College debt that I was like, shoot, I gotta get a job. And so I wasn't sure what was next. It wasn't until my younger sister, Kathleen, got into the industry, and she's two years younger than I am, that it occurred to me that it was an option. Because even though I've got my dad, grandfather, great grandfather, uncles, cousins, you name it, they're all men.
And so I never recognized it as something that I could do myself. So my sister got in, she liked it, she was making good money. And all of it was like it opened up this whole possibility of what I might be able to do. So I applied for the apprenticeship program and I thought to myself, if this is the path, I'll get in and if it's not, I'll have to figure something else out. And I got in pretty quickly.
and I started working the apprenticeship program and it went from there. even though so many family members went this route, it wasn't until my sister got in that I realized that I could do it.
Dee Davis (04:12)
That is so awesome that your sister was able to just kind of spark that idea for you. And that's, think what happens to a lot of women that I think could potentially be in the industry. My dad was an engineer and it never occurred to me to be an engineer until much later. And I tried all these other things. I think when we don't see that example.
of other women doing it, it simply doesn't occur to us that that might be a path. If you would have asked me if I would have wanted to do construction when I was 16 or 17 or 18, I would want to do construction or I wanted to do engineering. I think I would have been like, what are you even talking about? Why would I want to do that? It just wasn't something that even was presented as an option. When you went to career night in high school, at least back when I was in high school, it was only colleges.
There were no trades. There was nothing like that even available for discussion for men or women. You either had family and that's why in construction you mostly see families. sometimes some of the women are participating too, but a lot of times it's two, three, four generations of men in a given trade. So we're starting to wake those thoughts up as women in the industry. And that's very exciting.
What were your first years like in the field?
Irene Walsh Garcia (05:34)
wow. I have to say overall, I had a positive experience. I think a lot better than a lot of women that I've spoken with since then. I was generally the only person, only woman on the job. But everything has kind of worked out that I got a chance to jump right into working with the tools. I wasn't told just to move material or to get deliveries. I got hands-on experience from day one.
And it kind of went from there. even with that, and I'm grateful for being able to do that, the first person I worked with on my very first day told me straight up, he's like, you don't belong here. And I just kind of stopped. like, what do I even do with that? Right. So I had to listen all morning to all the reasons he didn't think I belonged there.
and then continue to work with him. But at the end of it, he's like, but since you're here, I'm gonna teach you everything that I know so that you don't have an excuse not to be able to do this job. And I said, you could have just started there, but okay. And so we got along well. I got to run big pipe right from the start and really do harder types of tasks. And then after, I don't know, maybe six weeks or so, the foreman,
thought it'd be a good idea for me to move on to something else. And they gave the same journeyman a second year male apprentice. And I think it was maybe day two of working with him, the journeyman asked for me back. And so I took that as like the highest compliment that even though, he took all this time to tell me why I didn't belong there, he wanted to work with me. And so it was, kind of that foundation. I'm like, okay, maybe this is a place that I can.
I can do well and thrive and learn if I'm coming up against that initial pushback, but I'm able to prove that I can do the work. will share, given, I have family members, my dad, he was able to give me some advice right from the beginning that I took with me every day. And a couple of those things were like anticipate, always anticipate what the journeyman needs and wants and is looking for.
So I wasn't sitting there waiting for him to tell me to do something. I was actively looking for the next thing. If that was a certain tool we needed, if that was cleaning something up, if that was preparing for the next thing, I was always doing that. I think unless you're, maybe it's just me, but I think unless you're told that, don't always know that that is what you should be doing. And so if I had a problem or a challenge, I could go home and say, hey, dad, this happened today, and we would talk through it.
And so I would have his perspective walking in the next day. And that really set me up for success. in those first few years, working with the tools, dealing with challenging situations. But I got to work on such a variety of projects that, the further along I got, I could do it. I knew I took things, one step at a time. And I knew if I continued doing it that way, I would figure it out and it would work out well.
Dee Davis (08:34)
You had a built-in mentor. That's so awesome. certainly not everybody gets that opportunity. And sometimes we're left finding somebody out in the field, but feels like maybe that journeyman could have been that person for you too. Even absent your, your dad and having that family connection of somebody you could go back and talk to because you changed his mind to the point where he came and asked for you. Yeah.
Irene Walsh Garcia (08:57)
I did, I did.
Yeah, that was exciting. That was kind of almost like a turning point and it happened very early on. So I think when you rack up those early wins, it just helps set things up. when they're talking about sending me to the next job site, a lot of times, I was concerned I have to prove myself all over again, or, are they going be accepting of me? what is this going to look like? But, when you're within the same company and you develop a positive reputation,
that reputation truly precedes you. And so it just kind of made things easier to establish that early on.
Dee Davis (09:30)
and being the odd man out so to speak or the odd woman out people talk people know who you are and and that can be good or bad right so that's kind of up to you whether that that reputation that precedes you is a good one or a bad one but within an organization and even within the trade
people know each other and they talk about you. And believe me, people knew who you were before you showed up on their job site and they knew what that reputation was. And so it's up to us to make sure that we're pushing forth that good reputation as much as possible. And it does proceed you. And so that's a really good point is that when you're out there on the struggle bus and you're just starting out, That was great advice from your dad.
anticipate that next move, anticipate that next thing, never be standing around. My husband was a tradesman for 37 years. And that was one of the things that I know he always told his apprentices, never be standing around. you should not be standing still with your thumb up your keester wondering what to do next. Pick up a broom and start sweeping something up, put something away, like do something. There's always something to do. And that'll keep you out of trouble if nothing else. it'll
giving you a reputation as a mover and a shaker and somebody who's out there interested in getting the work done. So that's awesome. Is there something that you came up against that was completely unexpected out there?
Irene Walsh Garcia (10:53)
All the time. All the time, and in good ways and bad ways. I mean, certainly I had both, I guess I didn't expect for my confidence to grow the way it did. building that reputation, my confidence kind of built the same way. It was a little bit at a time. But when I first started,
knowing that I was going to stand out as a woman in the trades, I made some rules for myself and that went a long way towards setting up myself for success. So one of them was I would not turn down a request for whatever job I was supposed to do if I thought a journey man would do it or any man would do it. Right. If I thought like this is something that
was a reasonable request, this is something within my job, I would do it. I started out being terrified of heights, small spaces, actually electricity, and like all of the things. I had so much fear starting out. But I promised myself I would not let those fears hold me back. And so I had so many different situations where I had to suck it up, be like, okay, no, like this is...
this is a completely reasonable request, this is something I have to be able to do. And then I would do it. one of the things that helped me do it other than just that resolve, I would sing to myself or hum to myself. And it allowed me to distract my brain enough to do the hard thing. And I think myself, someone's gonna think I'm crazy if they're hearing what I'm doing, right? Or hear like, why isn't she singing? But I had to
climb up scaffolding or do something that was truly like, my gosh, you I don't know about this. And I would sing, I would sing and it would make me happier and it would distract me from what the scary thing, whatever it was. So that was one of the things that I did. And I remember with this one particular, you know, fear of heights thing creeping in, I was partnered with someone whose nickname was Tiny.
And as you can guess, he was not. And we needed to tie in a temp service on a new building that we were doing. And he looked at me. He's like, you can either foot the ladder for me or I can foot the ladder for you. And you go up there. And I look at him and I'm like, I don't want to foot the ladder for this guy. And so I'm like, guess I'm going up. And so I did it. I got up the ladder as an extension ladder, which, you know, still wouldn't make me super comfortable, but.
But I did it, I climbed up, he footed the ladder, Tiny did his job, we got the job done and safely. there's a lot of little moments where realizing I did something that in a previous life, it would have stopped me in my tracks. again, accumulated those wins, realizing, no, I can do this, can do it, I can do it. And just kind of one day at a time proving to myself over and over.
Dee Davis (13:44)
I love that. As somebody who's never been afraid of heights, it doesn't occur to me. I forget that other people are, and that's a big deal in construction. If you're afraid of heights or I am one of those people, I call myself not afraid of heights. What I am afraid of is falling like everyone else, right? It's not so much the height, it's the falling and the hitting of the height.
And there's a certain height that you're going to get to where you're like, well, I'm just going to be dead if I hit the bottom. It's that height doesn't bother me. The height that bothers me is that's going to really hurt height. If I fall and hit all those things on the way down and I'm just going to wish I was dead. but I forget about that. That's a really good point. And I love the singing and the humming to distract yourself. No one's ever told me anything like that before. I love that. What an awesome way to get.
that little internal voice that we all have that sometimes is telling us that we can't. Hum your way past it. I love it. That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. What finally drove you to move out of the field and into the office?
Irene Walsh Garcia (14:51)
It was, think with anything, especially a big transition like that, it was accumulation of things. I got to a point where I didn't see myself working with the tools for the duration of my career. I kind of had that realization. I liked a lot of what I was doing, but I, one, I hated the fact every time I showed up on a new job site.
I was like, where's the bathroom? Like what bathroom situation am I going to be dealing with? Is it close by? Is it clean? Is it lockable? it just, you know, meeting the bare requirements? And so that really wore on me. And a lot of the general construction things I could deal with, but like the bathroom thing was one. even just the underlying, that kind of gnawing that this wasn't it. I learned a ton.
I liked a lot of what I was doing, but this wasn't it. during my apprenticeship, went back to school and got a degree in math. Cause I was like, I'll be a teacher. I'll be a teacher. Like I was ready to leave. I finished my apprenticeship and I finished my math degree right around the same time. And I was enjoying my job more. I was working with a general foreman who really, he had a lot of confidence in me.
And he kept pushing me and challenging me to take on more and more. we were on a project that had a mezzanine level. He gave me the drawings. He's like, do it. And I was like, oh shoot, I'm taking it one day at a time. I looked at it, I figured it out and I started doing it. I'm like, okay, this is good. And he took me aside one day and he asked if I'd ever considered estimating or project management. And truth be told, I had.
except any of the estimators or project managers, particularly the project managers I saw, were much older than I was and they were all men. And so I thought to myself, that does appeal to me, but I'm not willing to do this another 20 years to get to the point where I can be a project manager. that's what I thought it involved. and then so I explained it to him. I explained my hesitation. He's like, oh, no, no, no, no.
No, no, you don't have to do this for 20 years before making that transition. He's like, with your experience in the field and your knowledge and confidence of understanding the blueprints and all of this, they'll teach you. you just get a job with an electrical contractor, assistant PM or whatever that looks like. you'll learn on the job. And it was like the sky just opened up like just bright light. It was like, my gosh, I...
I, yeah, yes. it was amazing. I just, knew as after that conversation, I knew that's what I was going to do. And so of course, well how can I better prepare for that? And so I started taking construction management classes. I got my license. became a licensed electrician in Chicago. So I did all the things, even bolster my resume even more, figuring, okay, I've got six years in the field.
what else can I do to really make the impression that I need to to make that transition? those are all the things that over time and in that conversation made me realize what I could do.
Dee Davis (17:45)
That's awesome. And yet another example of we look to what's around us and what we can see and what we've been exposed to for an example of what we think is the right answer. And you're looking at it thinking, my gosh, these people all have 20 years experience. Not just that they're all men, but I have to do this for 20 years before I can move up. No, you don't. That just happened to be the example that you were seeing and how awesome.
that somebody pulled you aside and said, look, you're really good at this. this happens a lot in the trades where women get through their apprenticeship and leave the trade. And that's that marker that you were just hitting. You were just finishing your apprenticeship. And that happens more often than not. And it usually happens because that's about the time that maybe we start having kids.
Maybe it's the time where we start doubting ourselves a little bit, transitioning into a journeyman. It's like, Ooh, that's a whole different level of responsibility. I don't know if I really want to do that. And we lose a lot of women at that point. So I'm betting that your journeyman had seen that happen enough times that he was a little concerned that the industry was going to lose a really good person and helped find you a path that would keep you in the industry. So.
Brilliant. Good on him and wonderful for you.
What big lessons has the industry taught you that you don't think you would have gotten anywhere else?
Irene Walsh Garcia (19:08)
Wow, I do think about this sometimes. the confidence, just the confidence in so many different ways, just in all of it, even spilling into my regular life, right? When it came to buying my first place and making big life decisions, I felt it was just easier for me because I had racked up so many smaller hard decisions and wins along the way, that when it came to the next thing,
it was just like, well, yeah, I already do hard things. Of course I'm gonna do this next hard thing. And I mean, even, going to Home Depot, right? And I'm like, oh, I'm gonna buy a new clients or whatever. And the guy's like, oh, is this for your dad? said, no, it's not for my dad, it's for me, right? So all those different things. And each time I got to have that interaction, yes, I do this.
I know electrical work, I know how to get things done, I know how to make things happen. And then continuing to have those wins, once I left the field and even bigger growth in confidence and in skills, once I left the field, they were different, but they were even stretched me outside my comfort zone that I didn't even know was there. just the level of capability that I know I have.
because of my experiences in construction. Being in room after room after room of all men and myself and holding my own and having conversations and making arguments and saying no, that's not right. all of those things that have given me a confidence that I truly don't know how else I would have gotten it. Maybe it could have happened somewhere else, but this is my, I only get them my one path and I know.
at the end of the day that I can do like a level of hard things that because of all of these wins that I've had throughout my
Dee Davis (20:56)
It's not the first time that the parallel between construction and the military has happened for me. And maybe it's because I have both in my background that I see a lot of parallels. And when women talk about confidence and confidence building and the things that I learned how to do all these hard things. And I came out the other side, a much more confident person. The military did that for me. Construction did that for me. And I think that if you don't.
get those really hard stretches. somebody isn't pushing you and stretching you and just making sure that you try things that you never imagined that you were capable of. You just don't get those growth opportunities. And we are so fortunate in this industry. That's exactly what happens to us on a regular basis. When I think back to when I was a young project engineer and the things that scared me back then, and I think about them now, I'm like, whatever. That was like yesterday.
Come on like no big deal, but it was a big deal at the time and So we're so fortunate to get these opportunities and by the way We're recording this at the very very end of WIC week, which I think is just so awesome And thank you for for making the time to be here with us I love your story so much and I think it's going to be helpful for so many listeners out there
The next thing I want to talk about is the other piece of your world and your business and your life. You have a company called successful women in construction. And in addition to your day job, like most, of us have, we have this whole other passion that we pursue. We have our own reasons for pursuing them. This podcast is one of mine. you have successful women in construction where you do coaching around getting pay raises and promotions and.
I gotta tell you, that is like the hardest thing ever. When I was an employee for somebody else, going in and pitching yourself and talking about yourself and trying to convince somebody that you're as awesome as you know you are and that you deserve this pay raise and you deserve this promotion, that's really, really tough for a lot of people in general, not just women. Tell us why you started Successful Women.
Irene Walsh Garcia (23:09)
I started successful women in construction because of my experiences as a first time project manager. So after I left the field, I became a junior estimator for an electrical contractor. And for that first year, I decided to take off and put together prices for projects. after about a year, I'd been working on a 60 story high rise. I counted everything, measured everything, I put it together and
We won it. We won this project. and I should not have been the project manager on it because I had zero project manager experience. However, the company I was with didn't have any project managers available. There was a really large project that was finishing up. And as so oftentimes happens, that wrapping up their project just takes longer than you expect. Extra change orders, all the close-outs. And so,
There were two project managers in that. was assured that as soon as one of them became available, that they would go ahead and run this project and I would assist them because I knew it. I estimated I knew I could tell you what page, in the specs to look for information I knew this project. But I was told, well, in the meantime, since you know this project so well, start going to coordination meeting, start getting the submittals together. And at that time, didn't know what a submittal was. So I had to learn everything
As I went, I figured it all out, asked the questions I needed to ask, showed up to the meetings as I was directed to shaking. I was in coordination meetings shaking because I again, this is the first time I'm in any sort of like real meeting and I and I'm like, they're going to find out I don't belong here and I have no idea what I'm doing. And so but I kept showing up, I kept doing the thing and no one said anything. So I'm like, OK, I I'm just going to work. is what we do now. And
And then we landed another I think it was a 45 story high rise and no project manager is available yet. So I was told, hey, this one is a block and half over from the one you're doing. You're going to start going to those meetings too. So I had $24 million worth of projects on the electrical side that I was overseeing, not ever having run a single project in my life. So.
I was doing that, I obviously was super overwhelmed. I was working an unbelievable number of hours, trying to keep up with everything, learning literally what my job was as I was doing the job. Eventually, a project manager became available to take over one of the projects. I kept the 60 story one because that just sounded better than 45 to me. And the next three years of my life, I took care of this project. I ate.
slept and breathed this project. but it was it was obviously super hard, just figuring out difficult clients, things did not go well and not because of my own experience. it was a challenging project. We had like the we had several floods in the building and dealing with that, I had a switch gear package.
The manufacturer, they fell on their face during the entire project. all these extra things that shouldn't have happened, I should have been able to count on my sixty stories worth of showing up as submitted, as specified, all of that. And I couldn't. So there are all these extra things that were going on. And but I kept doing it. I kept showing up and I kept just figuring it out. And I realized, like, shoot, not in million years what I thought I could have done this.
And yet here I was doing it every day and doing it well. not that I never made a mistake, not that I never hyper ventilated in my car, but I was doing it. And they liked it. they liked what I was doing. My team liked me. My boss was thrilled. I mean, all those different things. And I was like, my gosh, like, what if I was actually knew what I was doing? Right. So just thinking to myself
there are people and I think women in particular where we're underestimating ourselves every day and they would have way more experience than I have and doubting themselves, right? So after the project ended, I started just reaching out. If I was on a project with a, you GC had a female project manager or assistant project manager and we grab lunch and I'd offer any sort of help or support in that.
And I love those conversations. I love that my experience could help someone else. And they walked away, like lit up, I lit up. And so everything kind of grew from there. But I will take a step back and share that when I started in that position, leaving the field, I didn't know how to negotiate for myself. So I accepted.
a deal that was less than what I was worth, not knowing any better at the time, figuring, well, I left the field. This is like starting an apprenticeship over again as a junior estimator. But during the course of that project, I doubled my pay. I doubled it because every six months I went in and I didn't really ask for a raise. I let them know that they wanted me to continue doing the work they needed to pay me more. And I
recognized how to present my worth and to, have an effective conversation on how to get paid more. And I did. So from the time I started at the company to the time that I left, I doubled my pay. it was hard, it was hard, I had to do it. That was probably one of the biggest lessons.
is just being able to speak my mind, get paid what I was worth, and not to apologize for it. So when I found myself after the project having these conversations with women, a lot of the times they've revolved around my gosh, my review is coming up. I'm not sure how to handle it or their review just happened. And they felt like they didn't get the promotion or the pay or whatever it was that they deserved.
or they're looking for the next opportunity and they're asking how do I position myself or how do I have these conversations? yeah, I can help you with that. Like I know how to handle myself and I can explain to you like what I did. And so from there it started, I was just mentoring, having coffee, having lunch, whatever. And to a point where I'm like, no, this is my passion. I feel like when I was going through that project and it was so hard, I kept telling myself,
Everything happens for a reason. And I'm like, I'm having this experience, these struggles right now so that I can do something bigger later on. I knew I was building something in that experience. And so that's what I've done with Successful Women in Construction. I built a 12 week program where you go through the modules and you learn how to...
navigate through those situations that are so common in the industry and so common for women where we don't recognize how much value we bring. at first I was doing one-off coaching and we would just handle situations as they came up, but I kept hearing the same things. I kept hearing the same struggles. And I've just recognized the need to create something that was more structured and delivered.
the information that I saw that women were needing.
Dee Davis (30:16)
Well, that's awesome. And I think there's an awful lot of people that struggle with finding how to voice their value, not just sounding like an arrogant self-absorbed jerk, but also truly voicing that. I can tell you that I personally, when I was a W-2 for a contractor,
I dreaded those conversations. I dreaded those reviews because I felt like they went the same every time. Every time I'm like, Hey, I'm doing a really good job. I'm killing it out there. I deserve a raise. I deserve a promotion. I'm doing the job, but I don't have the title that happened to me more than once where I was being asked to do the job without having the title and the commensurate pay raise that went with it. And I would always get things like, well,
we're giving you this raise and this is more than anyone else is getting. So don't talk about it. Shh, be quiet. Don't, don't tell anybody we're giving you this much and you're getting more than everyone else. And the problem is that they were telling everyone that, shockingly it was a lie and they were telling everybody that. And this was back in the days where companies were still allowed to keep
pay a secret. I don't think it's illegal everywhere yet, but I think it's not legal in a lot of places anymore because women have a tendency to get paid less than their male colleagues. And I know for a fact that back in those days, I was getting paid way less than my male colleagues. And I was doing the bulk of the company's revenue in our department.
I had the biggest projects, the highest profile projects, and I was getting consistently paid less and doing more work than my male colleagues. So really could have used you back then.
So your 12-week accelerator program, what kinds of specific skills are the participants going to walk away from your program with?
Irene Walsh Garcia (32:17)
A lot of different things. we start with getting very clear on what we want. A lot of the times we start building a career that doesn't necessarily continue to match who we are and what we want. And that's where I find a big disconnect in realizing, someone told us we should be doing X, Y, and Z, or they told us we should do certain things by a certain time and we internalize them.
and they can really create a certain level of unhappiness and they can stop us from meeting the goals that we actually want to meet. So if we're thinking in the back of our minds that we should be doing X, Y, and Z, but like deep down inside, we really want to be doing A, B, and C, we're going to be sabotaging ourselves and not even realizing it. So the first step we do is just to get very clear on what we truly want. what do you want your life to look like? What do you want your day to look like?
Does that involve a family? Does that involve taking vacations? Just getting down to kind of the nitty gritty and making sure that whatever the next step you take in your career aligns with that. And once that alignment is there, it's a lot easier to find success because everything you're doing is, you're rowing the boat in the same direction, everything's moving the same way. So I find taking that first step is critical.
And then since a lot of women are coming to me when they're looking to make that career change, once we once we get that first clarity, then we start listing like what type of job do we want? what are my must haves? What are my must haves and what are my can't stands? getting clear on that, because in those negotiations or we're having those conversations and looking at the jobs, it's amazing what we can convince ourselves of.
So sometimes we might be like, that salary is more than I've ever made. And you start looking into it. But sometimes it'll be like, but it requires travel 50 % of the time. And you've already decided that doesn't work for you. But you start kind of, well, maybe, maybe I could. But if you put it down in black and white, writing out, this is what I have to have, this is what I can't stand, and making sure and sticking to that.
And if we with writing it down, it just makes it more concrete and it makes it easier to stick to so that when, certain opportunity comes along, you're not distracted by it. And then getting into, an imposter syndrome I still have to remind myself no, no, no. let's put that inside that you've done this, you know, this, I built a sixty story highrise with no experience anything else is kind of easy.
we need those reminders. And I've had clients who, they're telling me their story and my mouth is almost open because I'm so in shock and so impressed with what they're telling me. And then the next breath, but I don't know if I can in whatever follows. I'm like, no, no, let me tell you, if you've already done this, the next step, my gosh, like it's gonna be a cakewalk.
And they're like, oh, you really? yes. sometimes we just need someone to tell us that. I think maybe deep down we know, but there's so much else going on. There's so many distractions in the world and in life and people who might be bringing us down or at the very least not building us up that we need someone to reflect back to us clarifying. Yes, you can do this.
You deserve to go after this. You are more than capable. There's just something kind of magical that happens when you have that person telling you those things and giving you a reason, right? reflecting back, you've done these really hard things over here. so let's walk through how this is going to help support your next decisions and really spelling that out and getting clear and walking through so that by the end it's like, well, of course,
then they have a level of confidence that I did in the first few minutes of the conversation that of course they can make this transition. Of course they can go for that job that right now seems a little scary. Because every change, every transition has its scary moments. But sometimes, we just need someone to help walk us through that. So those are some of the high level things. a lot of it is confidence. A lot of it is learning how to be a leader as a woman.
Men have certain characteristics that are naturally stronger, women have certain characteristics that are naturally stronger. And what I found in construction was that if I tried operating through what I saw, it was depleting to me. So if I try staying too much in that masculine energy, I make things happen, I pounding fists and being loud and more aggressive, like it...
It almost hurt my soul. it didn't feel good. it exhausted me. And that's not where my strength is. So my strength and for a lot of women is listening and learning to work with my team and supporting my team and showing up as a woman, from the leadership perspective. male and female leaders, we're different. There's no better or worse.
but we're different. But if we're operating from our strengths versus thinking, the male way of leading is the only way, then that just doesn't work. So learning how to show up where your natural strengths are and building from there, it makes all the difference in anything that you're trying to do. And it's going to minimize the possibility of burnout or just disliking your job if you're doing things from the place that feels natural.
Dee Davis (37:35)
Well, and what you're describing is being out of integrity with yourself. And we just had an episode recently about the integrity game with Jeff Kluback. He's the author of the integrity game. And we talk about that being out of integrity with yourself. You're out of sync. You're not being your genuine self if you're leading in a way that
isn't truly natural for you. So you have to lead not only the people around you, but you have to lead yourself and you have to build that confidence. you said a word that really resonated with me. I deserve this. I earned this. I deserve this. And sometimes we just need somebody else to voice that for us. Like, no, wait a minute. You deserve this. You deserve to be happy. You deserve to get that position. You deserve
You earned it. you don't deserve it. If somebody just hands it to you and you did nothing to earn it when you deserve it, you earned it. You've earned that place. You built that 60 story high rise. You deserve that raise that promotion that you got. I love that. That's, that's awesome. If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to boop the like button and share this episode with a friend.
thank you so much for sharing your story about successful women in construction. I think you're gonna get some phone calls from a few of our listeners there. You and I have had some discussions online and offline about the divisive topic of the definition of women in construction. This is not a popular conversation people, but we're gonna have it because we are management under construction.
And we are always learning and growing. And sometimes we don't always agree on how we talk about some of these things. And I think it's okay to just continue to talk about it. we as women in the industry are the 14%. You'll hear numbers anywhere between 11, 12, 13, 14%, something like that. But it very much depends on how you define the term women in construction.
So when we're talking about tradeswomen working with the tools out in the field, it's more like two to 3%, depending on your source of information. When we talk about women in the industry as a whole and everything that's related to the industry and all those representative roles, it's more like 14%. Irene, I want to talk to you about this because you and I have had some very interesting conversations around this.
Let's hear your point of view.
Irene Walsh Garcia (40:05)
Yes, absolutely. it's a very hot topic. Like, wow. So I do want to say that anyone working for a contractor in the construction industry, whatever your position, I support you. it doesn't matter if you're in accounting or purchasing or project management, your job is probably very challenging and you're coming across different things.
And we're so glad to have you in the construction industry. The caveat, though, is if we go ahead and say, my gosh, 14%, that's amazing. And I feel like people are kind of letting the industry off the hook. They're saying, look at the progress we've made. There's 14%. This is amazing. we'll just continue doing what we're doing. And that's enough. I have to say, what we're doing is not enough.
because the numbers of the women in the field, boots on the ground, installing every day, the number has barely moved. And that's not okay. if we're patting ourselves on the back over here, but this is happening over here, we have a problem. And not only it has a number barely moved, on the electrical side, it's stagnant if not losing people.
and Dee you shared at the beginning, so many women leave when they were finishing their apprenticeship there's so many different reasons around that. But the bottom line is women are leaving because generally they're not treated well. They're not given the same opportunities. And why oftentimes it happens when they go from apprentice to journey person is that if they're laid off after topping out,
they're likely gonna have a much harder time finding work. So if you're laid off and as an apprentice, you go to the apprenticeship school, I'm speaking from my Chicago apprenticeship. They go to the apprenticeship school and you might have a job the same day, but you're generally gonna have it very quickly. When you become a journey person, it's a whole different process. And that was also part of the timing of when I made the transition from field to estimator.
is I already knew that I was going to make this transition, but I made it faster because I topped out and within a year I was laid off and I went to go sign the book at the Union Hall first time laid off after topping out and they're telling, it's gonna be 18 months before I get back to work. I'll figure something else out and it all works out.
women just have a harder time. They're treated more poorly once they top out as a journey person. And if they didn't receive the training throughout their apprenticeship, then it just just makes the situation even worse. I know there's probably more more detail in there. But the bottom line is if we if we're sitting around saying, yay, 14 percent and we're not acknowledging the fact that the other women in the field are still suffering and still struggling and being treated poorly on everyday basis.
then we're failing. Dee I don't know if we got into the details on this previous in our previous conversation, but, if you're on a job site on a regular basis, then you're a woman in construction. That's the way I look at it. project manager, someone who's dealing every day on a job site, there's usually the only woman in the room.
dealing with how the work is put in place, then that to me falls under woman in construction. And if your job would largely look the same, if you work for a different type of company, that's me like that's not so much woman in construction. So if it's accounting you're in the office, you don't really know much about how the work is put in place or any of those details.
it's not to take anything away from anyone. I support every woman who works for a contractor, but there's just a difference there. as a project manager, as a woman, I had macro aggressions when I was in the field and experience a high level of micro aggressions in the office. it's different, but it's still very challenging.
Dee Davis (43:48)
Yeah, absolutely. I started my career as a carpenter and I never encountered any other women on the jobs that I worked on. And you're right. I absolutely had a hard time getting work because I would call even carpentry shops. I remember calling cabinet makers, trying to get more work and they would hear my voice on the phone and they would not even call me back because they were not interested.
in talking with a woman in the industry. this was a long time ago, but still this kind of stuff still happens where there's an assumption that you must be less skilled. You must not know enough. You must not be equal to your male colleagues because you're female. And somehow I don't know why, but it comes out that way. the things that come up
when you're working in the field every day, whether you're working with a tool bag or you're working in the trailer as a project manager, project engineer, whatever, they are very different than the things that come up when you're working in an office. I've spent very little of my career working in an office, but it's like being in another universe, honestly. Yes, there's still some of the things that we all talk about, but the thing that cracks me up that comes up every single conversation it seems like.
is the bathrooms. I cannot even tell you how true that is. And it's so funny because I never viewed that as a really big deal, but I seem to be in the minority because every other woman I talked to in the trade, talks about the bathrooms and I view that as a basic, human right to have a clean bathroom to go use when you're on a site.
The fact that it comes up so often tells me that that is not what's really happening out there in most job site cases. And so it just really does become a thing that people talk about on a regular basis. So even if you just plucked that one little thing out of the air and said, you have a finished building with a plumbed finished bathroom to use all day, every day that's cleaned on a regular basis. And I do not.
I have a port-a-potty that maybe gets serviced once a week. If you just took that one thing and plucked it out of the air and said, here's one huge difference, that is one huge difference along with like you're saying, the macro and micro things that we all encounter out there. all right, well, leaving bathrooms and percentages behind.
Let's talk about professional organizations. So what kind of professional organizations do you belong to and how or do they help support you in the industry?
Irene Walsh Garcia (46:27)
Yeah, so here in Chicago, we have professional women in construction and they started on the East Coast and have expanded to Chicago. And I haven't checked more recently if they've expanded anywhere else, but I know there's a started on the East Coast, so they're not everywhere. I have found that organization to be very helpful. And certainly on the networking side of it is really the biggest piece.
something that sets men and women apart in the industry is just the availability of networking. And I think a lot of women, we grow up working hard and this, I'm kind of sharing this from a lot of what my clients have gone through. They went to college, going in the construction management side and they did well and they show up on the job site and they're bringing kind of that same, like, I'm just gonna work hard and improve myself.
and then I'll get promoted and people recognize me. that's oftentimes that's not what happens because the rules change. And once you get to a certain point, once you get out of college, what your opportunities are is largely based on your network. And yes, you can work hard and prove yourself. That's certainly important. But if your colleague over here is golfing with your boss,
there's good chance he's going to get promoted before you. That's that's the way it is. So it's really important to be networking who do you know and developing those relationships because so many times a job that I was working on, went to a different contractor because they had the better relationship with, the owner's rep or whomever, right? so it's important as women that we develop our own networks and certainly
as there are more of us that we help each other out. either with an individual getting in just a job, saying, hey, so and so is going to recommend you for this because, they know you and they like you and all of that. But also just being successful within that job. If you you know different people and you have those relationships and makes a difference. So I've been in other women construction organizations.
And it's just nice to be with other women in the industry, but it didn't have the level of networking that was helpful for my career. And so just be able to really get to know people, just having just industry and events that we get to meet even more and just be able to be on a committee and get to, it's just really important. And I recommend this to all my clients,
Check out the organizations around you and if you're able to join one, join one or two or three or whatever your time allows. But it's just really important to have those networks.
Dee Davis (49:06)
Yeah, it absolutely is. And I belong to too many organizations, to be perfectly honest with you. And it's hard to sometimes to narrow it down. There's some very industry specific or construction industry specific organizations that I belong to. And then there's some like energy engineering and sustainability organizations and things that are more niche topics within the industry that I belong to because I'm interested in those things.
and their ongoing education and some of their certifications and things like that. But networking is not a dirty word. We have an episode. I believe it was season two where we did the podcast episode called networking is not a dirty word. And I think especially the younger generations who haven't really been taught how to network. They think that going to a networking event of any kind is all about
talking about work and talking about business and sales. I'm a salesperson, I'm selling myself to all these people at the event. That's not what networking is. Networking is all about getting to know people on a human level. them getting to know you, you getting to know them. And yes, you might talk a little bit about work, but it's really not. I actually had a colleague join me at a networking event this last week for WIC week. And she was a little reluctant to go.
I don't know, networking, it's so icky and they're going to be talking all this jargon stuff that maybe I don't understand. And after the event, it was like, wow, that was really fun. I met a lot of really cool people and we just had great conversations and it wasn't so icky like I thought it would be. It wasn't so like, ooh, I'm selling myself or my company or whatever. It's just getting to know people and building those relationships and whether that's over golf or
over a happy hour or some kind of industry event. It doesn't really matter, but you build those connections people start building familiarity with you and that will help you get the next job opportunity. There's a hidden market of job opportunities out there that aren't published anywhere. They're at networking events and
you know, get just getting to know you and your company and maybe it'll help you get your next job. Sometimes you end up across the table in an interview with somebody that you've networked with at different events and now they kind of know you. it's a difference between a cold call and a warm call. Now it's a warm call. It's a handshake. It's a smile. Hey, I know you from such and such. That's what it's all about.
All right, so I think we've talked a lot about how this industry is different for men than it is for women. Did you have anything more you wanted to add there?
Irene Walsh Garcia (51:45)
Yes, I've kind of touched on this before, but I think the big thing is, being true to yourself and just knowing that, where you are, right now is enough and that, you don't need another certification or another degree or another, anything added to your resume. don't undermine yourself. And, it's important that, you recognize your worth right now.
think about it, even if you saw an opportunity that looked interesting, but you didn't check every box. Just think to yourself, what happened the last time you were in a situation where you didn't know everything, something was new, did you just, go back to bed or did you figure it out? And the women I know in this industry, they freaking figure it out. whatever that means, that means making phone calls, that means
doing research, that means going out into the job site and asking more questions, they figure it out. And so don't let something intimidate you that you could overcome very easily with just a little bit more confidence the experience comes, the experience will come. Don't wait until you have 10 years or 15 or whatever it is. If there's something that excites you and you wanna do it, go for it.
And so take it from me, managing $24 million worth of projects with zero project manager experience, you don't have to check all the boxes to go for what you really want. And that would be my biggest takeaway.
Dee Davis (53:10)
Yeah, that's so true. Women have a tendency to think that they have to check every box and that they have and that the way to overcome what they feel are their own deficiencies in one area or another is to go get more certifications and go get more degrees. Not that those things are bad. Degrees and certifications are great, but you can't educate yourself out of experience. Experience is irreplaceable, and I would say it is even more valuable than
all that education and certification, because when you're thrown into the fire, like you were with $24 million worth of work, you learn and you learn fast. It's absolutely a sink or swim situation. And you're going to learn, you're going to come out the other side of that with three degrees worth of education, right? it's flying by the seat of your pants education.
Can you tell me about some of the people in your life that have been your biggest supporters?
Irene Walsh Garcia (54:09)
Yeah, I feel like I'm so blessed to have so many people in my life who support me. I mentioned my dad earlier, certainly my mom has always been a great support. My husband certainly now, it's fantastic. And we met through work and honestly, I thought I intimidated the heck out of him. Well, I kind of did, but somehow he got past it that we're married now.
But he supports everything that I do. And I just have had really close friends who, even though maybe they didn't know exactly what I was dealing with on an everyday basis or the different things that I came across, they looked for things to relate to what I was doing to support me and to cheer me on in whatever it was that I was doing. And so now I have my seven-year-old Isaac.
He's learning about construction because he doesn't have a choice, but no, he loves it. But he knows, mom's a electrician she can do this, she can do anything. so it's just great to be able to teach him from such a young age, that women and men, The limits are only what we decide for ourselves. But to have those people who believe in us and who let us know that we can do hard things, those reminders are always helpful. And I've always been.
blessed to be surrounded by people who believe in me.
Dee Davis (55:26)
That's awesome. If you had any advice to offer someone wanting to get in the industry, what would it be?
Irene Walsh Garcia (55:32)
Well do it first off. it's a great it's a great industry. I have what I have because of the work that I've done in this industry. It's a great paying industry. I love the fact that there's no set path that you can, get an apprenticeship or learn from family members how to build things and or you can go to college and do it that way or you can.
just get a job out of high school. if you show up with a great attitude and a willingness to put in the work, you can be successful. And that's what I love about it. there's doctors, there's set of lawyers, there's so many different things where like you have to do X, Y, and Z in order to have a successful career in that area. And for construction, that's just not the case. you can do it from any angle.
And as long as you're persistent and continue to work hard and show up and be humble, be willing to learn all those different things, you can absolutely find success and you can support yourself and your family.
Dee Davis (56:28)
And it's a good living too. It's one of the industries that really is absolutely very well paying compared to a lot of other industries. And that continues to be the case, particularly in the trades. If you're on the union side, it's one of the few places that you can still earn a pension, short of having a government job. So there's lots and lots of benefits to doing the construction industry and
You know, there's lots of great women like Irene Walsh Garcia to help you along the way. So how can people best reach out to you, Irene?
Irene Walsh Garcia (57:03)
I will add one more thing, AI is not building that building. So if you want a job that's not gonna get replaced with AI, get in construction, right? no matter what happens, no one can take away those skills. So if life throws you some lemons, you go ahead and install your neighbor's new electrical panel or whatever it is, right? no one can take those skills away.
So the best way to get a hold of me is generally through LinkedIn. I'm on there as Irene Walsh Garcia. I answer my messages and that's also a great way to see a little bit more about what I do and who I am.
Dee Davis (57:37)
We'll make sure we put your contact information into the show notes. So thanks everybody for joining us. Please like and share this episode with a friend, leave us a comment or question and we'll see you next time. Thank you.
Irene Walsh Garcia (57:49)
Thank you.
