Dee Davis (00:01)
Last week on Management Under Construction, we were joined by Beth Wanner with Mother Cover. We talked about how covering parental leave or leave for any reason, whether you're becoming a parent, you need a mental health break, you're taking care of other family members, whatever the reason is, we're not doing a good job as an industry. To make sure that these people are adequately covered, we keep spreading the load between
Existing workforce, which is burning them out and causing them to have to take more leave. And we have this self-fulfilling prophecy of not supporting particularly mothers when they go out on maternity leave. we just assume that they're not going to come back. And because we don't support them it kind of ends up happening. And what we found statistically.
Is that women that leave the workforce after having a baby, almost all of them continue to stay in the workforce. They just go to a different employer.
Now join us for part two. Here's where we left off last week with Beth Wanner at Mother Cover.
Dee Davis (01:20)
I hired somebody about a year ago who had a great job and was moving forward, was right on the cusp of of getting a big promotion. And when she got pregnant and her boss found out, not that her boss was a bad person, but whatever the culture of that particular company was, did not get the promotion, went on leave and when
The leave was over. They told her she had to return to office full time, which was not what she left. It's not the way it was when she left for her maternity leave, and was not the plan when she was going back because it was a a change in policy and there was no flexibility on it. and I ended up taking them on because they're a fabulous person and doing a fantastic job. And I can't even tell you like what an asset.
this company lost because they didn't support this person when they needed it the most. you know, they're lost my gain. But it's a bit of a a lottery. Sometimes even if the policy is in writing.
It doesn't mean that it's going to be enforced that way. It doesn't mean it's going to be implemented that way. They did exactly what you just said. They left it up to the individual manager as to how it was handled. And it wasn't handled well. And they lost an excellent employee. So it's it's unfortunate and I'm certain not the first time that's ever happened.
Beth Wanner (02:41)
Yeah, and we often harp on that. A policy really is typically written from a legal standpoint. It really just answers how much time do I have and is it paid or not? It really doesn't answer how do I approach the continuity of my role. I am leaving. My work continues.
How is it continuing? And then how am I coming back? And how will I be supported through that? So that is really where, we're leaving it up to managers to decide how they're going to do that for each one of their teams. I'm not saying that the right approach is a blanket approach, but it is giving managers the tools of what flexibility can we offer? what are
The levers that they can pull for covering work, whether that is bringing in someone externally, if they're it's looking at at fractional because there's a portion of that person's role that really is critical and some of it can be paused. whether there's somebody internally that could be given a
bonus or some sort of compensation to step into that role. Cause that was one of the things that was highlighted in this this Aflack study of the burnout of individuals stepping into somebody else's role. Even acknowledging and thanking somebody for stretching themselves and maybe being able to give them a little bit of a bonus to compensate that they are stepping in for somebody else's work on top of their own or being able to take extra vacation because they've probably worked extended hours.
Like I said, there are different situations, different levers that you can pull, but thinking through them and then giving your people managers that toolbox to use rather than create their own every time or just assume that there's nothing so they don't support that that team member and then you've either lost them or you've lost others on on the team, you've missed your goals. Like I said, it is that costly trade-off that we think is free.
Dee Davis (04:31)
Right. with anything and we fight this in construction all the time, there's unseen consequences and things that are not hard costs, that are real consequences of the decisions that we make in management all the time. And it's always the most difficult thing to make people see things that you can't draw a straight line and say, If you do this, this is gonna happen.
you can say if you do this, this might happen, and this other thing that's hard to quantify might also happen. you're gonna have problems with three or four people on the team instead of covering for the one and what is the value of that? That's stuff that's very difficult to quantify. what are the most common misconceptions that companies usually have when they first start working with you?
Beth Wanner (05:16)
either one side or the other, thinking that we are a recruitment agency. So sometimes the term agency, I need to think of a a better word for ourselves, can can turn people off of like that's gonna be a really expensive
overkill solution for for what they need for their role. I'd say we're not recruiters. we don't post roles publicly and then go searching for somebody. We're looking through our our pre-vetted roster already, which is why we can fill a role with three months notice or three weeks notice or less. and we don't have recruitment fees. We don't have finders fees. We don't have placement fees.
Everybody who works for from Mother Cover as a leave partner is an independent contractor. We negotiate a percentage of that contract with the leave partner. So it should be the same cost as if you found your own contractor or freelancer or fractional professional. On the other side is then we get called a staffing agency, which
Nothing wrong with staffing agencies. We're just on the different kind of end of, the professional spectrum. staffing agencies is typically for your frontline workers. They might be admin roles, they might be data entry. We are for your, senior level individual contributor type roles all the way up to your C suite. So we are for your
professionals that that are on your team usually at that critical moment when they are navigating whether it's parental leave or caring for for parents so they're not your employees who are maybe two to three years into their career, they are eight, ten, fifteen years in into their career and and at that pivotal moment.
Dee Davis (06:56)
Executive leave staffing. Something like that. I'm trying to think of the right words to properly describe. because yes, when you say the when you use the word temporary, people get the idea of unskilled labor.
less skilled labor. that's certainly not what we're talking about here. so yes, it's it is a niche.
certainly that you carved out for yourself. I've never heard of any other company that's doing what you're doing, which is why I think what you're doing is so cool. And I think it's going to be a thing. I'm impressed that you have 200 people that you're working with right now. that's much larger than I expected it to be at this juncture. But wow, that's that's fantastic. I think you need 2000 of people doing those things because more and more companies I think
are going to start to see the value here. And, as we hone in on this, we'll be able to see a little bit more of the calculated cost savings in the studies like you were talking about with the AFLAC study.
Some of these leaves are way too important to leave to chance. And where do we draw that line?
Beth Wanner (07:59)
If if you want to look at it purely from where you can build the easiest business case, it typically is your roles that are attached to revenue, that are attached to customers or key relationships for you. But as we're talking about the business case, there's also just the values side of things as well. Of what type of company do you want to build? What type of culture do you want to have? What type of safety do you want to create? Who do you want at your leadership table?
So looking at those who are either on your leadership track or already there, how do you keep them there? and even for those who don't take their own leave, they're watching how others are supported. And that decides whether is this a company that they want to invest in for the long term as well? Is this where they feel safe and supported and proud to be a part of that? So just being aware of all the different
Elements that come to anybody taking leave, the fear that your employee feels and probably isn't talking about, the fear and stress of the individuals who are covering that leave again aren't aren't talking about that. So bringing that to the the table and solving for that from again, not just the business side but the cultural side of it too, and and building a company that you're really proud of. This
Again, puts policy into practice. So a lot of individuals who are betting which companies that they want to join are asking about leave policies.
But they're growing skeptical about it because we even hear stories of high profile enterprise companies that seemingly do have parental leave and other type of leave policies that are progressive on the table, but then individuals still feel fearful of is this a test of loyalty? I can take it, but should I? And and what will that ultimately mean for my career? So being able to say, here's our policy, but here's actually how we support that in an operational context.
Is kind of like walking the talk. And you can point to a real proof point for how your cultural comes to life when it's pushed in those hard moments. What does that actually look like? So from the retention standpoint, from a recruiting standpoint, for the legacy that you want to leave, this can be a really important area to give some attention to.
Dee Davis (10:21)
I love that. If you like what you're hearing so far, boop the like button and share this episode with a friend. In the original working parents episode, we talked a lot about that that void and we talked about the pay differential between men and women of the same education and job description and that gender pay gap.
we talked about what happens when women statistically take their parental leave and what that does to their pay and what that does to their trajectory of their career. But guys, this is all about you now too. we're gonna start seeing that gap potentially close a little bit because men are taking parental leave as well. Maybe men are gonna experience a bigger
Challenge that way. I don't know than women do, even. It'll be interesting to see. Time will tell. Those stats are published every year, and it's going to be something that I'm definitely going to be keeping up on, and I bet you do too. Supporting leaves should really be protecting careers and the return journey for employees, regardless of what kind of leave it is that they're taking.
What does it look like when a company gets it right?
Beth Wanner (11:39)
One of the best things that I heard one of the individuals that we stepped in for say is that having somebody
come in for their role not only made them feel like they were valued for their to their company but their work was as well. And they're like my role and the contributions that I have to the company were were too important to leave to chance or or leave to be dispersed amongst my co-workers and then me feel burdened They talk about the loyalty that they feel and the mountains that they will move for their employer because unfortunately
Unfortunately, they recognize that that isn't the experience of many, and how hard it can be to find an employer that does truly value a working parent and know what they need to feel supported. Or again, just any individuals we talk about often bring your full self to work. Well
That can feel like a double-edged sword of if I do share that, like I've got an aging parent that I need flexibility and support around, will that eventually be used against me? So feeling that psychological safety is so powerful to a lot of employees today because it's unfortunately, still too rare. So what that leads to in motivation, what that leads to in loyalty.
And also just the the individuals who are managing around these things in in their personal lives are some of your most productive, organized individuals because their time is is finite. They don't can't work till midnight every every night or or miss suppers or those sort of of things that they maybe did earlier in their career. But what I say to to how I experienced becoming a mother is I was someone that first one in, last one out.
I can't necessarily do that anymore, but when my daughter gets dropped off at daycare it's like someone hit a stopwatch of like how much can I get done before I
I'm done at 4 30, so I can go pick her up because that time is really important to me. And then I might be logging in again after I put her to sleep at night, but it's my choice because I really care about the things that I'm working on, the clients that we're working for. and I find that really true for a lot of the parents and and professionals that that we work with, that they're like, we're we're hyper-organized, we're committed, as long as you show that that commitment and and support back to us.
Dee Davis (14:04)
Yeah, I love what you said you create an employee that will move mountains for you. So, employers, in case you're wondering, this is all about human nature, right? It sort of like if you're polite to somebody, they're gonna be polite back to you. If you treat someone nicely, they're gonna treat you back nicely. If you are kind and supportive and helpful to your employees, guess what they're gonna be back to you?
This is not that hard to figure out, but something happens sometimes when we go, we say, it's all business. Well, I'll tell you what, I've been a business owner for most of my life. I've owned one kind of business or another. And I gotta tell you, it's all about people. I don't care what your industry is, I don't care what you do for a living or how you make your money. It's all about people. Your clients are your people, your employees are your people.
The people that are paying your bills are your people. And you have to look at them as people and treat them as people and have a little compassion, a little empathy, because that goes a long, long way to your bottom line. I mean, let's just be honest. If you want to make the most money, it's not beating people up, it's treating people with respect, and they'll turn around and treat you with the same kind of respect. Now,
I'm gonna say all that just to say, are there people out there who are gonna do you dirty if you treat them right? Sure. Of course. There's always those people. There's always people that are not going to reciprocate, and that's fine. You can figure out who those people are pretty quickly. but this is really all about treating people the way they should be treated so that they will do the best job for you in your business and treat your customers.
The way you want your customers treated. I do want to touch on return to office policies because I think this continues to be a hot topic. even as recently as in the last year, I I have personally witnessed some companies that are just demanding return to office full time for people. how is this affecting?
Flexibility and hiring conversations in the marketplace.
Beth Wanner (16:15)
Well, I would say I'm the one that's benefiting from that because as more and more companies push return to office mandates, it is typically the the parents that get pushed out and say that they just it it doesn't work for for them. And again, those are individuals who are seasoned into their careers who are great. It's it's the ones with options that leave. And they come to mother cover, which is great.
for for me. But I would want them to come 'cause they've got that options, but
A lot of the individuals that are fractional professionals on on our roster left their corporate job because they're like I I needed some sort of of flexibility and I was able to build that on my own terms. And I see the caliber of those individuals and they are phenomenal. And I think what a loss to the companies that they left. What a benefit to me. What a benefit to the companies that will bring them in on a on an interim basis. But
I wish it came from a position of of more people feeling like that was a choice that they wanted to pursue it versus this this was the option that they had. So I think it it's quite a loss to to companies because you're you're losing your best talent when you have a rigid structure that doesn't allow for humans to be humans and to have things that that matter to them outside of work as well.
Dee Davis (17:36)
Yeah, and I know there's those that'll say it's the old guard fighting against the new guard. And, you know, to some extent that might be true. but I've met plenty of younger people who are are very much in favor of return to office. I have these conversations with all kinds of people from all walks of life and all industries on a regular basis because I'm trying to understand why there's such a divide here. When we're talking about return to office, there's all kinds of people that just love it because.
They don't like working at home. they want to be in an office. They want to go be in that environment. And then you got the people that are the extreme opposite, and you've got the people that really want that choice. I actually know people who work from home full time that purposely go to rented offices to work because they like that environment and it's not available to them. And I'm thinking, my goodness, I love working at home.
Beth Wanner (18:27)
Yeah, I I would add to that too working from home isn't for everybody either and and there is absolute importance to in-person time but I'd say in person with a purpose. Just to work alongside somebody, that's not necessarily what you need somebody to be adding a commute to their to their schedule and we think about
solving for the logistics that a company has when somebody's going on on leave. Now think about the logistics of that parent or individual who's got to navigate dropping a a child off at daycare or at school and and pickup and the logistics of how our lives and corporate lives are structured, the math just doesn't make that possible.
So it's an im it it's an impossible choice for for parents when you're like I either don't live near family, I can't afford after school care for somebody else to pick up my child, all those sort of things make it it impossible for for a five day a week in office, even if they they want to.
so coming up with with flexible options, because many don't want to give up their career. They just need us to look at a nine to five slightly differently than we have historically, where we always had one caregiver at home and single-income families. That's just not the reality for for many anymore.
Dee Davis (19:52)
Yeah, and on the flip side, I know lots of people that are stay-home parents right now. I know lots of people who are dual income families. I personally never wanted to stay home. I did stay home briefly. and by briefly I mean a few years with my kids, and it just wasn't for me. I love my kids, don't get me wrong, but I was not a great stay home mom. I wanted to go back to work. and I think before COVID.
We didn't have any other choices. You had to go to a place to do your job. N now that we have the tools and the software and all the things for remote working,
in so many roles where it just doesn't make sense to be in office all the time anymore. But I also see the other side of it, especially in construction, it's very, very tough to do construction from home. you pretty much have to be there and it's the the collaboration that you get when you're all together and you can constantly talk and communicate and you keep up to date with everything that's going on is the other side of that coin. It works better in some industries than it does in others.
If all you're doing is sitting at your desk all day on Teams meetings, does it really matter where your zip code is? Probably not. So I I hope that employers will start catching on to this. they're losing a lot of great talent out there by forcing the return to office in many cases. like you said, you're benefiting from it. some of these other companies are benefiting from it when they hire leave partners through mother cover.
But let's let's stop and pause and and think about, not losing that best talent. And if we can provide people with some flexibility and some options, whether it's temporary or permanent, then I think most people would choose that flexibility. before we close, I want to stay on the people side of things for a little bit. I want to hear a little bit about the people on your roster.
The two hundred people on your roster, what makes somebody a really strong leave partner?
Beth Wanner (21:50)
I'll come back to the emotional intelligence side of it. So their why of why it's important for them to step in for somebody and again versus taking on project work or or a vacancy. So
Having them be an experienced professional again covers that skill set, that knowledge that they're they're stepping in for, but knowing that there's somebody who cares about the individual that's on leave and the tightrope that they're walking, of how do we support them and make them feel as stress-free as possible and that they've got a true partner in this, and the company confident that you can.
Build that bridge. So we say we are we are a bridge, we aren't a replacement. We're there to bridge them back when they are are ready to return. So it's really somebody that understands that the low ego side of things, how to elevate somebody else. And then the other side might sound a little bit more simple, but it's organization.
You are creating that bridge and you're building it for somebody else to return to. And maybe you are stepping into a role that wasn't really well documented before. So how do you bring that as a as a value add of like now we're creating this this blueprint of you've got structure? So now maybe eventually as the as the company grows, you're adding others, they've got a playbook that they can step into this company and potentially this this function, but also creating
those breadcrumbs a a context for that person to be able to to return to. They need to see where the work is that you completed, where things are and help them at a moment that's probably pretty overwhelming for for somebody to return regardless of the reason that they were out for. There's usually something that's still happening in their personal lives, whether they are a new parent, maybe they're navigating their child is in daycare for the first time. Maybe they're still figuring out
Pumping and and breastfeeding schedules, things that again, we don't always want to talk about when we're talking about work, but that becomes real for them as they're trying to figure out what does again that flexibility and schedule look like. Maybe they're not sleeping yet. that's where small things like having things documented and organized just is one small thing that creates huge relief.
for them of we've I've got somebody that's thought about this for me more so than just circling a date and remembering when I'm going to return and creating we recommend a a 30, 60, 90 day plan for them of what does good look like for them as they're returning. Because sometimes it's a confidence thing too of I feel like I might
be this new person that I am discovering and and remembering. So you're not welcoming back the same employee. This is a different employee. It's a great employee. They've added new skills that are very valuable. But how you help support them through this transition, and it is a transition. It's not a day, it's not a week, it's months long, that again will return to you in spades of just thinking through that to help support them.
Dee Davis (24:50)
Well, you said one of my favorite sayings, what is good look like? And I I can't take credit for coming up with that one. I I believe it's my friend Paul that first said that to me. And then when he said that, I was like, I love that phrase because it really makes you stop and think. We always assume that everyone around us knows what we know or thinks like what we think and has the same idea about what something should be or what a specific result should be. And
That's not true, of course, but we we continue to do it all the time. So it's important to say things like, What does good look like? to trigger that feedback of you tell me what good looks like, what does that look like at the end of it, so that we can make a plan to get there together. so that's one of my favorite phrases. People at work are probably so tired of hearing me say that.
But that's a perfect segue to the closing of this. And that's exactly the picture that we're trying to paint here, employers, of what does good look like for this employee, regardless of the reason that they're out. especially when we know that they're going to be out for a particular period of time. There's some companies out there that still offer planned sabbaticals. I've never worked for one, but I know a few.
so those people know when they're leaving and they're long sabbaticals. They're five weeks, eight weeks sabbaticals. I've always wanted to work for a company that did that. I think it sounds wonderful. but when you have a planned sabbatical, when you have a a planned medical leave or a planned parental leave, we want to know what good looks like at the end of all that. you can contact Mother Cover, they can help you paint that ideal picture and a plan to get
To not just good but excellent result for everybody at the end. Okay, before we close, let's give some quick immediate actions that people can take. For a leader preparing for parental leave, what is the first conversation they should be having?
Beth Wanner (26:51)
It really should be who covers what for how long and start planning that
Probably three to four months before the leave starts. So too often we we see people leaving that specific handoff conversation to the last few weeks when you never know when a baby's gonna arrive. So if you go out on on leave early, that's gonna leave people flat footed. but we see it on both sides, of the individuals afraid to kind of bring up that conversation, and so is the people manager. Have it as early as possible.
gonna take off stress from from both plates of the things that where it's the elephant of the room that we're not talking about.
Dee Davis (27:29)
Exactly. So for a company that doesn't already have a coverage plan, what should they do first?
Beth Wanner (27:35)
One of my favorite exercises when I was a a people leader on an executive team was going through our whole company and doing what we call the double circle exercise. So you give a circle if this was a critical role and another circle if this was a critical person that you want to retain on your team. So start with everybody who is a double circle. They're both and make sure you have a contingency plan for them. not just that again they win the lottery and go off somewhere.
but that they have a support plan for them and then work through the rest from there. But you're starting with your critical potential points of failure within your company. Where do you need to make sure that you're retaining that person, that the work that they do has a plan.
Dee Davis (28:17)
I love that. So everybody wants to be a double circle person. You want to be critical and important at the same time. for an employee going on leave, what is something they should ask for before they step away?
Beth Wanner (28:31)
Performance review. And I say this because things can change when they return, and sometimes they are even coming back to a different manager. Lots of things can happen. And that is just one of those things that is making sure that you know what foot you left on.
When individuals come back and their role has been reshaped, or they have a new manager or things like that, and sometimes there can be a change in performance review there, or they've got somebody who didn't know them for that time. Having a performance plan before you go on leave no documents in writing, and it protects you. It protects the employer as well too. You should have that done before the employee goes on leave.
Dee Davis (29:12)
I don't know what answer I expected, but that wasn't it. I would have never thought of that. Because you just assume, and again, you know, that's a terrible thing, right? But you assume everything's gonna be the same when you come back. You're coming back to the same team, the same position, the same manager, but who knows? Maybe you won't. I love that idea. That is awesome feedback. Thank you. So where should listeners go if they want to learn more about mother cover?
Beth Wanner (29:37)
They should go to mothercoveragency.com or you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm always talking about all things leave, parental leave, studies that we're reading. would love to connect with you there.
Dee Davis (29:52)
That's wonderful. Thank you so much. We'll make sure that we get your website in the show notes. Thanks for joining us, Beth. We'll see you guys next time.
Beth Wanner (30:02)
Thank you for having me.
