Jen Brown (00:00)
people are messy and we do bring our whole selves. I used to think I could compartmentalize what happened at home, would stay at home, and I would do my best to show up in a different way at work. People know when you're not being authentic. People can read you.
Dee Davis (00:24)
Good morning and welcome to the Management Under Construction podcast. I'm your host, Dee Davis, and we're back for part two with Jen Brown talking about leadership and emotional awareness and all the squishy, messy things that go into leading with intention, leading people. So, Jen, I noticed that your website emphasizes self-awareness, communication, and building trust, which I'm a big fan of.
why is that foundation so important before someone can lead other people?
Jen Brown (00:55)
Well, first, thank you for continuing this conversation, Dee. these questions of how do we build trust all come down to connection. And connection for me is one of those foundations of leadership. If I'm not connected to myself and know myself, know what will stress me out, know where my strengths are, know what gives me energy during the day and what frustrates me, then
How am I really able to connect and build other leaders? And that as a leader is my primary goal, to build the capacity of other leaders so that we are then building the capacity, building the building, building the company. But we can't do that without people. And if I try to invest in people first without knowing myself, we're not really building connection.
And so I really look at that that question of what does it mean for me to know myself and lead myself consistently so that I can help lead others and build others.
Dee Davis (01:59)
Yeah, and when you and I had our initial conversation, you brought up a term that I've never heard before called positive intelligence. so I can't wait to hear more about positive intelligence. we also talked about using the Maxwell DISC Test, which I'm a DISC administrator. I'm actually getting ready to give a seminar this week, a half day training.
And we're doing DISC assessments on everybody. And part of the training is understanding your own DISC assessment, helping to understand what other people's DISCs mean. we'll talk and we've mentioned that that assessment before in this podcast several times. So using DISC and positive intelligence in your coaching, how do these tools help people better understand themselves?
Jen Brown (02:41)
So first, I think these are tools, right? They're assessments that help give us shared language so that we can understand what might be a reaction, where stress triggers might show up, how we're naturally wired to want to communicate.
And we start to understand that other people have different stress triggers. They communicate differently. So it helps us to understand where maybe we're not on the same page, even though we think we're speaking the same language. And something that's important for me to put out there, an assessment doesn't mean that we put you in a box and say, this is who you are, right? These are tendencies that might be showing up.
But we all have different tendencies too. And so it's a question of are am I going through something that is a particular situation and maybe I show up a little differently over here? But again, it comes back to just having some shared language of understanding what might be happening. And I'll start with that positive intelligence piece because this is a framework that builds on emotional intelligence of.
knowing myself and knowing others, being aware of what's going on. Positive intelligence really gets at a deeper wiring of our brain and how our bodies show up. So we have these autopilot reactions in this framework,
the founder Shrizad Shamin calls them saboteurs. I call them stress triggers really. So if I am naturally wired to want to be in control of something, well I have some underlying strengths that might look like bringing order to chaos, having high standards, maybe even struggling with some perfectionism here. Attention to detail. Not that this applies, but it does to me personally. So
You know, knowing that about myself. Okay, those are great strengths, but if I leave them unchecked, it shows up as being a controller, a control freak. And I've had conversations with teams, my own teams and with other leaders about that. What happens is I'm now denying my team the opportunity to grow, to make mistakes, to learn.
And I'm stressing myself out because I've hung on to all of these to-do things that maybe I don't need to do. So I kind of dove into that positive intelligence piece as a little bit of an explanation because when I can put words around what a stress trigger looks like, then other people start to say, yeah, I get that. That shows up in me too.
Dee Davis (05:25)
Yeah, and the thing that I love about the DISC tests is that they help us understand ourselves. They help us understand the people around us. When we do these as a team, each person does theirs and shares the result a little bit. I need you to give me information like this. Don't waste a bunch of time. Don't give me a five-page dissertation. Just get to the point.
That's that's a me. I'm a high-D and construction's full of hides on the DISC test. We are very direct, we're very goal-oriented, we're are very just want to get things done as fast as possible, kind of people. And when you get too many of those people together, sometimes we conflict and we like to be in control too. That's another form of that. We like to be in control and you can't everybody can't be in control, right? That's never gonna work. So
learning how to deal with each other the best way, even when your profiles are the same or very similar, can be somewhat challenging. And that's what these profiles do for us. it can also reveal, as you mentioned, how we behave under pressure. There are very specific DISC tests that that just talk about workplace and they reveal things about how we show up under pressure. and so how do these tests help?
Talk about that and and how we can communicate better as a team.
Jen Brown (06:42)
Absolutely. I think this is this is the point where they start to come together, right? so knowing some of these stress triggers about myself over here under the positive intelligence framework is one thing. How do they show up as I communicate now? What's that language that I might use under stress? And so in the DISC assessment, there are four main types of of communication styles. And I might be that person who wants the bulletin.
bottom line up front, no emotion around it. Don't give me any background right up front. Just give me the bullets. And yet
when we are communicating that to other people who have different tendencies. Some might be more relational. Some are looking more for a bit of that stability in the language of how does this impact us as a team or and the longevity of the project. And some are going to want all the details. They want to understand, the data, the research, whatever behind that information. So
If I know that I'm that D bullet person and I'm trying to communicate with team members who have a different approach, as that controller, I'm going to get frustrated with that D style, I'm going to get frustrated that they're not hearing me and they're not giving me the information I need in the way I need it. So this allows us to take that step back for a moment and understand. I'm not saying
change your style per se, but be able to communicate what you're looking for and why you want it that way. And and also know what the team may need from you to understand what is going on. So maybe the team does need a little bit more information than what you would be prepared to give normally. And so that leadership, to me, a D style can sometimes be
here's your your project, just go do it. And maybe the teams over here, but I don't understand why. Or I don't understand this element of data. And, how did we get to this point? And not to mention, people who who maybe need a little bit more of that socialization and relationship investment. that can run in conflict as well.
So these assessments just give us awareness of how we like to communicate and receive information and open our eyes to not everybody hears the same thing and wants that information the same way. I use an example, I was a leader of a team at one point, and I would communicate with somebody and I'm I'm thinking I'm being very clear, but in fact, we're talking right past each other. And
What I ended up learning from that is the importance of closing the feedback loop, coming back saying, what did you hear me say? What are your next steps? I'm curious. Where do you anticipate challenges? what does success look like for you at the end of this? Because if their definition of success and your definition don't match, well, then there's frustration in between.
And probably a lot of rework and and wasted time and missed deadlines and all of that. So that investment in communication up front is just so critical so that we hear each other as as much as we can in a way to advance the project, the goal that we have.
Dee Davis (10:00)
I I'm dealing with a situation right now where me along with some others are being asked to completely change the way we're doing something. And this is something about high performing people that you sometimes you need to explain to us what your goal is. That you the system that we're using isn't broken, but you want me to change it into the system that takes me ten times longer to achieve the outcome. So
I went back last week and I said, I need you to explain to me what the goal is. What what are you trying to achieve at the end of the day? Because I think the way you're going about it may not be the most productive way. And somebody that likes to be productive and is quite busy doesn't want to be slowed down by something that doesn't make sense. so it's funny because I notice within myself,
I was in the military, I'm a rule follower, I'm a compliant person, you tell me the rules, I'll follow them, until they don't make sense. As soon as a rule makes no sense to me whatsoever, I go back to explain it to me. Tell me what you're trying to achieve. And if I can understand why you're doing it, and I'm like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. I might not agree with it, but I understand where you're going, I'll comply.
But if you don't stop and explain it to me, if you just say you must comply on something that I'm like, I don't have time to comply with your nonsense, so I'm not gonna do it. You get that opposite defiant reaction very quickly. And as a leader, as somebody who's trying to roll out this change, they're not doing the best job at the moment. They're not explaining anything. They're just saying, do it. Do it. Okay, well, you've got 12 people that now are saying, I'm not gonna do that.
and it gave me an idea. We're gonna do a an episode about change implementation, announcing change is not the same thing as implementing change. And I see that happen way too often. And this is a lot of times in it happens in construction, it happens in business, it happens everywhere. This is where you start getting into conflict and you start getting into arguments and pushback and people being stubborn as mules and saying, I'm not gonna do that. Well, it's because you're not communicating.
As you say, you're saying this, they're hearing that or seeing this other result, and they're thinking, you don't understand how this change impacts me. So unless you can give me a real good reason why I'm not gonna do it and it all kind of boils down to influence. Influencing people as a leader, influence is super, super important
mandating is not leadership. Mandating is, I don't know, being at the top of the food chain, I guess. Not sure what that is, but it doesn't work very well in the business world, in the civilian world. It it works great in the military. You don't have a choice but to be compliant for the most part. But in the civilian world, it doesn't work that well. It does not work very well with a whole job site full of type A personalities. They're just gonna ignore you and keep going, is what's gonna happen. I've seen it happen a thousand times.
when people start getting that kind of conflict, it raises stress. Stress starts to go up and people start reacting differently under stress, don't they? What's that look like?
Jen Brown (13:06)
they sure do. So that is where the stress triggers and the communication style start to really bubble up, right? When you talk about that leadership style of mandating, I am a John Maxwell coach as well, and I love his philosophy on leadership. And he has five levels of leadership. And actually the mandating is
really level one. It's the lowest level. It's leading from position title only. And the goal as you rise in your five levels of leadership is that people trust that you care about them, that you are a competent productive leader. They've seen you get results. And then it's really becoming that investment of how am I building the capacity of other leaders around me? And multiplying that out.
And so when we talk about the idea of making change or even delegation, to me there's a philosophy that I hold with this is one, again, connection is at the forefront because people need to know that there's trust, they need to know that you care about them and that you can help them. And then two, there's the clarity piece, the communication.
Of what are the goals? Why are we trying to do this thing? What does success look like? And then my question is: do we need to tell people how to do it or do we enlist our leaders and teams around us to help us find the right way to get to that goal?
And I share that because I've been a leader where I was holding on to challenges that I had operationally with personnel. And I felt like twofold. One, and I hate that this was it, but this is how leadership in real life works. My identity was wrapped up in having solutions and being the leader, like I'm going to fix this. That's why they brought me here. This is my job to fix it.
And that identity piece of I'm a problem solver and I can make this work. And then two, the other flip of that is really when I think I'm protecting my team. They're busy, they're stressed out. And so let me not add more to their plate. But I didn't give them the opportunity to weigh in. And there's the difference.
So it comes back to that. How do we communicate under pressure piece? And I was under pressure and holding on to information because I thought it was my job and I'm protecting them. But it boils out as frustration, right? Short tempers. I don't have time to answer this question again. Why are you not doing what I've just asked you to do? And
Than carrying that home and not being present at home either because my mind's still focused on work. And so really at that point, it becomes: let me reconnect with myself. Is it true that I have to have all the answers here? I know what the end state needs to look like. That's my job. And my job is: how do I bring that team with me?
Because otherwise I'm capping them and they're not growing. So the leadership of whatever momentum we get under my leadership stalls the moment I'm no longer there. I haven't built up the next generation of leaders and thinkers. And what happened is as I started doing my own work and got out of the way, I created space for innovative, wonderful ideas that helped us get to.
The end state we needed to get to. So I built leaders. It was wonderful to see them grow. I stopped feeling like it all had to be on my shoulders. And really, there was a stronger sense of team. And when you are going through a lot of change and change that maybe you can't control, it's the communication.
Of building teamwork, communicating in a way to say, look, okay, here's this next change that's coming down the pike. What do we think about this? What's the end state that we're trying to get to? How can we brainstorm the best way to get there? And if there's really no change in the process that needs to happen, maybe that's a hard conversation back up the chain of command. And maybe they take it, maybe they don't, but at least then you've
you've brought in the team to help creatively solve this problem that's been identified. Those are my thoughts on it. I've seen where leaders under pressure, they do withhold information. And again, I've been one. But that's not the best long-term way to really implement change and to get at the root of what it is we're trying to fix or grow.
Dee Davis (18:02)
Yeah, you kind of were driving at one of my favorite sayings there is what does good look like? And that's one of the biggest leadership failures that I see on a daily basis a leader or a person in a position of authority expecting everybody to know what they want without ever communicating it. And I sat in a meeting with a the general contractor and one of the trade subcontractors, and it was something as simple as a submittal.
Their submittal kept getting rejected. And I think we were on revision five or something, and it was starting to get urgent for work out in the field. And they just said, it's rejected again. And I said, okay, timeout. we've rejected the submittal five times. What exactly is the problem?
You need to help this contractor understand what good looks like. Don't just say it's not good enough and send them back. Help them understand what good looks like. So when they come back for round six, we got it. And we should never get that far. But that wasn't, they weren't getting any feedback. They were just saying it's not good enough. Well, how is how are you supposed to improve on that? How are you supposed to know?
What to do? what is the expectation? In this particular case, it was a resume for a quality person on the team. And they kept saying, well, they don't have enough experience, or this or that. Okay, what does that mean? How much experience should they have? What kind of experience? show me a resume from somebody that is acceptable. What does that look like? So that I can go try to match that up.
With something so that we can move forward here, because right now we're just spinning in circles. And this kind of stuff happens on construction sites a thousand times a day. And we just waste time, we get frustrated, and people start getting angry. And what I've seen with people getting stressed out is they get more rigid, they start protecting themselves, they start lashing out verbally.
Their voice gets raised, they start arguing, raising their voice. I've seen it go as far as people throwing things across the room. It's it's not good. It's a very, very bad result. and I've seen it happen with leaders, people who are in leadership positions, throw a chair across the room. Are you kidding me? Is this where we're really going? So we have to do better. We can't let
Things get that way. And one of the things that that the DISC profile will tell you is how you act under stress. I know for me, when I start getting busier, your stress level naturally rises as you start to get busier and busier and there's more demands on your time. I get less tolerant of extra things. I don't want to hear a 10 minute story about this issue. I want you to tell me, did the inspection pass? If it didn't, why?
Very brief, very bulleted. And it gets intensified as I get busier and my stress level gets higher. I don't want to hear a story about how you walked to three different floors to get this done. Okay, great. Did it get done? Yes or no? everybody's different. That's just how I react. and it's important to understand that about ourselves, because then you can see it happening.
And it's also important understanding about the people that we work with around us so that we can manage that and maybe give them what they're looking for and get out before anybody's stress level gets any higher.
Jen Brown (21:31)
I wanted to add to that. Thank you for saying that. It's true because in the DISC assessment, right, these are graphs. And so you can see where you your communication style under normal circumstances, if you will, and then that stress level. And you'll see the dots shift the where they plot on the graph during stress. some people will want more data during stress. So the flip of that. So knowing where people are. one
leader with whom I have worked, he will actually go in and read team members, leaders' profiles before stressful conversations as that reminder of, okay, I need to adapt this way because I know that they're going to take it this other way. And so it's just that helpful reminder again that in stress our tendencies are really exaggerated in what we want.
Such a powerful example, Dee
Dee Davis (22:24)
Yeah, absolutely. I'm always happy to share my own failures and faults because Lord knows I have enough of them. you mentioned earlier that about delegation and like holding on to things and not delegating, which is something that a lot of people do, and I've been guilty of that one myself. stress definitely shows up when people are trying to do everything themselves. that creates a bottleneck.
Right. This is one of my biggest fears is that in any process, and we're working on outlining some processes on a project that I'm on right now. And I said this three times in a meeting last week. I'm concerned that I'm gonna be the bottleneck here. what if you get hit by a bus? Well, what if you take a day off or go on vacation? God forbid you should not be there one day. What would happen? And how do you make sure that you're not the bottleneck in the
process and this happens often with people in leadership positions. Why does that really happen?
Jen Brown (23:19)
Well, I think it gets back to a couple things. One, identity might be wrapped into that, right? Like wanting to hold on to control. And I know I'm an expert in this area. And so I haven't relinquished that as I have risen in leadership. There can be trust issues of they're not going to do it as they, the team won't do it as well as I would do it or do it at all. and
really that bottleneck is also a time issue. I don't have time to train people because to really start to develop the capacity of other people, we need to invest in them. And when our calendars are full and we're just trying to put out fires, what do you mean I'm going to sit down and take a 20, 30-minute meeting with somebody to talk through something up front?
But you're that 20, 30 minutes is going to come back to you somewhere throughout the lifespan of the thing, if not at the end when you then are doing some rework because it wasn't what you wanted. And so the question is really: what's the cost of being that bottleneck? What's the cost of the day you're not there? What's the cost of
Of the team members who haven't been prepared to step up into that next role. we want to be able to promote, but are they ready to, or are we repeating that cycle of technical expert equals promotable leader? And that's not always the case. And it in that delegation space, I put a lot of emphasis on.
the clarity piece, the communication piece and setting up accountability. Because again, yes, we start with that emotional intelligence connection level, but we need to get to performance and accountability and holding people to the standards that we need for success. So it starts with investing in that conversation of what does success look like here?
And here are some guardrails around where your authority begins and ends. Here's what I want to see in an escalation as this goes forward. Let's build in accountability with milestones so that I know when the check-ins are coming and I'm not micromanaging you because who really wants that, right? You know, so having a detailed, thoughtful plan to invest in a person as we are handing something over.
I think sets them up for success and ideally is moving things off of your plate. And, it's hard to think about where we relinquish control. As a recovering perfectionist myself, I will say if somebody else can do it 80% as good as I would, that's the Pareto principle. Move it to them because I need to be focused on those things that only I can really do.
Dee Davis (26:06)
Yeah, I think fear plays into this a lot. and fear shows up in a bunch of different ways. It's a fear of becoming irrelevant. It's a fear of becoming replaced. it's the fear of letting go. fear is a scare it's a scary word, right? It's like, I'm not afraid. Well, yeah, you are, because it's human nature.
it's the source of some of the feelings that we have. And especially if you are a person that likes to be in control, it's the fear of not being in control, right? And again, most type A personalities like to be in control. And letting that go to some extent to trust to all those things that you said is is difficult. And it's something that we have to work on on our personal journeys.
so how do you help somebody let go without feeling like they're just, you know, letting that little birdie fly and hope it doesn't face plant?
Jen Brown (26:56)
you're right. It's, fear. And there's also fear, If it's your company, it's your reputation, your name on it, your name on the project. So all of that is super true. The first step really is understanding what's at the root. Who are you when you let this other thing go? And what is your role now? Because that role evolves into I'm building people.
To build the project, to build the thing. And that requires a different skill set. So one is just being aware of when that fear is showing up and taking a look at what is really on your calendar, what are those things that you are doing? You got to be ruthless. You got to be ruthless in going through that and saying, I really don't need to hold on to this. But
I want it to be set up for success. So, what does that handover really need for that person to run with it and own it? And own it. This isn't a, hey, I'm going to give this to you. wait, let me take this back, or I think you need to do this. that's why you build in those accountability check-ins, but not that let me give it to you and then take it back. Really understanding too
If you hang on to that fear, couple questions. What happens when you're not there? Whether it is vacation, whether you're trying to sell the business, how valuable is that business if you're holding on to everything? Because you've lost a lot of the valuation at that point. What does it mean for the team who is depending on you, maybe in a in a business development sense?
What's that next pipeline look like if you're over here in the business so much as being that working on it, being at that top-level leadership that is required to run interference with other stakeholders, right? And to coordinate that strategy. So, what are you not doing by holding on because of fear? And when we start to dive into that and look at calendars.
Because calendars, that's where the truth is, right? What am I spending time on? So we do spend time on time audits. We do look at what are you holding on to? What's your team doing? What's their daily structure? And I go a little deeper and I'm like, where are you meeting with your people in a routine way? Because if we're doing drive-bys,
We're not really investing in people and understanding what's going on. So how do we structure our time to reflect where the priorities are? And that's in building people.
Dee Davis (29:34)
Yeah, absolutely. We get caught up so much. in in the day. you come into work early and you're just crazy all day. I found myself last week looking at my calendar because my the team that I'm currently on is growing. I'm hiring new people and getting them trained up so that they can be independent and be out there covering a lot of these bases. And I really started looking at my calendar this week, and yes, this is what also what happens to me when I get busy.
I stop showing up to your meetings that aren't productive. If you send me a meeting invitation with no agenda, I'm not coming. That's what that looks like. letting that go, like saying, hey, you know what, I think on this kind of thing you're gonna be fine. is it gonna be a hundred percent? Probably not, but that's okay. Is it gonna be good enough? Is there really a big risk here? Let the birds out of the nest, let them fly.
And that's the difference between helping them grow and holding on to everything yourself. And it is hard. It's hard because you just you want everyone to succeed and you want a good result. It's very difficult as a leader sometimes. I can tell you that my time has been valued very differently as a business owner, I look at
every hour of my time as a potential billable hour. So how am I spending my time, not just my time at work, but how am I spending my time not at work? Am I spending it on the couch watching six hours of Downton Abbey? or am I doing something productive to build my business? Or, could I be spending it doing this other thing? it's the same thing as a team leader. we have to look at how we're spending that time, look at that calendar.
how does that change change how people make decisions?
Jen Brown (31:15)
One of the best examples that I have seen is in when leaders start to understand my time needs to be for the people around me and in a productive way. So investing in relationships, investing in productive, targeted, focused, one-on-one meetings in team meetings with that agenda, right? Not having a meeting for the sake of a meeting, but
going in with an agenda, knowing what what you're looking to get out of that. And then it becomes what am I doing for the business here? So being very strategically focused on, okay, I need to focus on some cash flow. So what does that look like upstream here? Let me let me get out and develop some people along on my team to help me focus this way. Or where are those other relationships that need to be
within the team that need to be mentored. Maybe I have somebody on my team to step into that team lead role and build them up. So really at that point it it's no longer task driven. It is strategically focused, CEO time, if you will. And something that you said, the time outside of work. We think that
We don't need rest. we talked about celebration in the previous episode. those are not squishy things. And rest can look differently for everyone. Some people, really think that's sitting down on the sofa and maybe binge watching some TV. but others might think it's reading a book or or taking a walk. Whatever rest looks like to bring that mind down a little bit because.
When we show up with energy, that is contagious. When we show up with focus, that is contagious.
The same time, if we continue with a calendar that just has us grinding and grinding, that negativity also is contagious. So as a leader, it's really up to us to set the tone. And what we do inside and outside of the business is the result that we'll get.
Dee Davis (33:27)
I love that you brought up rest. because that that's something that I'm having to really work on right now. I'm working on a very, very demanding job. And it's often six days a week of long, long hours. And so protecting that rest time has become tremendously important because if I don't, I can't show up with that energy that you're talking about and that positivity and
everything that I need to do to to make the project successful and grow the team. Let's talk more about the cost of rest. If you like what you're hearing so far, boop that like button and share this episode with a friend.
we started talking about the cost of rest. And you mentioned before actively decompressing after work and not bringing everything home. And I I know people who have really struggled with this. I'm fortunate enough to be married to somebody in the same industry as me. So sometimes decompressing looks like me coming home and talking with my husband about all the things that happened that day.
And just like, wow, this is crazy. I can't believe this is happening. You got to hear this story. That's what decompression sometimes looks like for me because I have somebody to just talk it through with that knows what I'm talking about and understands what I'm saying. for other people, it might look like something else entirely. so you mentioned a couple of different stress tactics with the squeezing the fingers, rubbing the fingers together, squeezing your palms together.
making a fist, and that's just like an in the moment kind of like taking you down. But true decompression is going to look like something bigger, I think, for most people. what does that look like in practice?
Jen Brown (35:05)
It really does vary, person to person, of course. something that I've been seeing show up more is spending time in silence and just giving ourselves that mental break to be able to reflect on the day, to be able to
To really take note of again, where were some wins, what's still out there, where am I, where am I still being stressed? that transition space is really key. And whether that looks like sitting in your car for 10 minutes before you walk into the house, maybe playing music, maybe silence, maybe it's taking a walk, but mindfully transitioning spaces and even
from meeting to meeting, we often jam our calendars, right? There's no space in between. But we're not meant mentally to carry all of that on a day in, day out basis all the time. So where can we even build in those micro breaks during the day to be able to just take some some space and and catch our breath for a moment? And the reason that this is so important is when we are carrying
the last meeting into the next meeting when we are carrying the day into the house, we're not fully present. And so we either look like, well, it's not an either. Many options can be here. We look like we're avoiding conversation at home because our brains are just tired. So we withdraw. We shut down. We might snap because we're exhausted. We're frustrated.
We're not fully engaged in listening, which then starts to tell the people around us, maybe you don't care so much about what I have going on. And those unintended consequences show up in relationship health. They show up in performance health. They show up in
As our own stress signals, right? Where are we carrying the stress that we're not getting rid of? So knowing what works for each person is really, really important. But think about when you're stressed out, what is something that you can do that will help lower that temperature? And whether it is, the fingertip rub on a longer basis, or or going for a run, working out, or sitting.
in silence, whatever it is, being intentional about building that in. I I will say, I've been in stressful situations where I'd come home, not transition, and I get caught out at home. And that's not a great place to be as a mom, right? and it's not a great place to be with your team when they're coming in and they're like, I know you're busy and you don't really have time. Is that really the message I want to send to my team?
So just knowing that if we don't build the transition space in, others are picking up on that.
We're communicating.
Dee Davis (38:00)
you're making me think about my own situation. I I've had several people come up to me and say, I know you're so busy, but not that it stops, but you know, but da da da da da da. so yes, it's I think sometimes being careful as a leader not to look too busy.
You know what I mean? Like to not to come across as like, my God, I don't have time for anybody or anything. That's that's not a good message to send. So that's that's a very important point.
There's a lot of guilt, especially in the construction industry, about rest, about taking rest, about taking time off, especially if somebody's a high achiever. Everybody looks to the high achiever and is like, you're gonna be off? how really? Is that are you gonna call in? Are you gonna are you just completely gone? Like what what's going on here?
Rest is very, very important, especially if you're a business owner, if you're somebody in a leadership position, because you have to keep showing up. And if you're not able to relax and reset, whatever that looks like for you, don't let it get to the point where you're laying on the couch staring at the ceiling for three days. Ask me how I know. I've been there. That's called burnout. That is a place you don't want to go. you you start you stop caring.
very quickly about things when you start getting burnout. So we want to avoid burnout. We want to rest and s and come back after the weekend or the vacation or the time off and feel renewed, feel reinvigorated, feel ready to, get in there and get dirty. but there's a lot of guilt around that. as a is the opposite of
productivity and I know that my personality type, I feel guilty when I rest. I have a beautiful pool at my house in San Diego that I've probably been in six times because I don't feel that I can take the time. I don't have time to use it. I have more productive things to do. How do you combat that in your head?
Jen Brown (40:00)
Such a great question. And I'll be honest, I share the same challenges in that space. The question I I personally wrestle with, and I see other leaders wrestle with, is I need to be doing this because the next thing downstream depends on me for this.
But as you talked about, when you hit that stage and you are on the sofa for three days, when your body is physically holding stress that you can't move, or you have anxiety, panic attacks, what's the cost of that recovery? And so often we think I don't have time in the moment. It goes back to I don't have time to develop people in the moment.
There's always the longer-term cost, the future-looking cost. When you can't show up and you can't mentally invest, you can't put your own oxygen mask on, and then you have nothing left to give. And we can't keep pouring out from an empty space. So that investment in rest, in play, in celebration.
Is all what gives us the sustainability of the legacy that we're trying to create. And it it seems short term, it seems like in the short term there's no time, but in the long term, look back, how much time do we actually waste trying to do one thing that is taking us two, three times as long because we're so fatigued? Whereas if we take that short rest.
Take an hour and go do something. Maybe we come back and it's like, yeah, okay, now I had a creative idea and I can I can do this thing so much faster. we do have to step away in order to give our brain that recharge, our bodies that recharge. And I'm just as guilty. So it's something that that I work on as well. I'll be honest, as I try to use AI even in some of my calendaring.
I'll have AI as an accountability partner to question me about where are you building in rest? Where are you building in taking care of yourself? So whether you have an in-person accountability partner or are using AI in some of your calendaring, build that in and block it. I know it's a challenge, but the cost, if we don't, is more severe.
Dee Davis (42:18)
Well, I love that you said put your own oxygen mask on first because well, I fly a lot, so I hear that a lot. but I think well for me that analogy hits on two things. It hits on the fact that it sounds selfish, but it's actually not. And where better to think about that when you're sitting on an airplane, they tell you put your own oxygen mask on first and then help your child.
Or person who needs help, and you're thinking, that sounds horrible. Why wouldn't I do theirs first? Because if you're dead, you can't help them. That's why. And they need help. So you have to help yourself first. And as selfish as that sounds and feels, if you don't help yourself first, you can't be there to help anybody else.
So I love that you said it that way. And and I've heard that term used before, but I'm I think I'm gonna start using that more because to me it is the perfect balance of it sounds selfish, but we actually all know that it's not. So why is this any different? This part of taking care of ourselves, why is that any different? It really isn't.
Jen Brown (43:36)
as you tie into that, think about the business owner, the leaders setting the stage for the culture of the team. Do you want a team that stays with you, or do you want to keep going through burnout and turnover and all of those costs? When the leader sets the tone.
And I know because I've been that leader that said, you should go do this. I'm not personally living that out. I've had great, wonderful teams who will call me out and say, no, you need to go do this. Which again is when you build a strong team, you can be that accountability partner. But the the point is, as the leader, we're modeling for other people what is needed. And construction is such a hard industry that if we don't take care of each other.
Then the mental health, the physical health, it all adds up. And our teams may not stick around because maybe they can't. So the leader gets to create the culture of saying, this is part of how we operate by taking rest, taking care of ourselves.
Dee Davis (44:46)
Yeah, we happen to be recording this in construction mental health awareness month. and I think you hit on something very important. And I see this every day on my job site right now, where some companies have established work rules they're only allowing each person to work so many consecutive days before they have mandatory rest days. And this is part of construction's response.
To mental health because when you're tired, you're exhausted, everything starts going negative, right? people in our industry, not gonna lie, start drinking more. Drug abuse is rampant in the construction industry, and suicide rates are four times higher than any other industry. In case you didn't know that. it's horrible, it's horrible, and we have a massive crisis, and all of this ties back into.
not taking care of ourselves, not taking care of each other, poor leadership. As a leader, it is your job, part of your job, to recognize and to keep close enough touch with your team to go something's wrong. And I had somebody at work this last week where, they're part of my team, but they're not on they're not directly reporting to me, but they're part of the team. And I said, hey, what's going on? Something's not you don't seem like yourself today.
And this happened to be he was physically not feeling well. He had some physical issues that he needed to address. And I said, you know what? I said, I I think it's you need to go home. You need to go home and take care of yourself because whatever's going on here today isn't that important. it's not more important than your health. and how you feel. Go home, rest, get yourself taken care of, take the weekend, your boss isn't here right now, but I'll speak for him, you know.
To go, just just take it. and that's part of our job as leaders is to be that aware when somebody doesn't look quite right, when something's going on, find out what's going on. I wasn't sure what kind of an issue it was. I just knew that it was an issue. So we get wrapped up in our work. We get wrapped up. There's some we can't leave this episode without using the word ego. Okay, there's a lot of ego in construction.
Whether you're out there swinging a hammer or you're making the big money decisions, there's ego in all of it. and especially anybody in a leadership position, even letting other people do things. our identity gets wrapped up in work, especially when you're somebody that cares deeply about what you do. what does it look like when somebody thinks they're the only person that can do something right?
Jen Brown (47:17)
If I may back up for just a moment, I want to really recognize you for noticing that your team member that something was off. That is the definition of emotional intelligence. So recognizing that as the leader is really everything that we need for our teams to be able to continue to go forward. So thank you for bringing that example in.
The ego and thinking that we're the only ones who can do something. So often that ego is based on the fact that we have gotten to this point because of some level of success, that we are skilled in the technical thing that we do, in leading the company, that we grew it,
And that is a short-term win. But then my question is always, what's the legacy you're trying to create? Because can that company or can that element of your success sustain itself when you're not there? And if anything is tied to one person,
It's a short-term win, but it's not, it's not a lasting impact. And I I think that's where we start to look at what leadership really is all about. We grow ourselves so that we can start to see, hey, maybe I'm holding on to this one thing, and maybe I'm the only person here. And if I'm truly committed to the why of what I'm doing, then
The opportunity I have is to help build the capacity of those around me so that they can continue to grow. They get to grow other leaders and they get to continue rippling out the impact of the thing that we are doing, the project that we are working on, the next project to come, so that when it's time for me to step aside, whether that's short term or longer term.
there's a plan, that can outlive me. I think back to some of those leadership examples that I mentioned in the in the first episode in particular of holding on to leadership. Maybe I would have been successful in that particular role. But what happened is that by doing my own work as the leader and growing others around me,
What I've seen is they continue to grow. They're continuing to grow leaders. And that ultimately is the legacy piece that we want to create, especially in an industry where it is so tough. And finding qualified people who will stay with you is such a challenge. So that to me is when ego gets in the way, we're shutting down what
that lasting impact can be.
Dee Davis (50:12)
What is your advice if you're a leader that has been doing it all and you want to shift your mindset to I can grow others? What what is your advice to somebody in that position?
Jen Brown (50:23)
Well, of course I'm a coach, so I'm going to say get a coach, work with someone, right? I'd I'd be remiss to not say that. But seriously, it it starts with the awareness of realizing where are you holding on, and then what steps do you want to take? Who's around you? Who do you want to develop? And putting a a real plan together.
a coach will help you get there faster. Working with someone will help you get there faster. You can do it on your own, absolutely. It just means you need to be more intentional in your own scheduling, your own awareness as you're growing the journey. There are lots of amazing books and podcasts and all things out there. but the key start to this is growing. So ingesting information and making it part of your daily plan.
For execution on what is it that I want, starting with that end in mind and knowing your why. Why do you want to do it? And then looking at the resources around you and coming up with a realistic plan of here's how I'm going to build this, this team, so that we're all growing together.
Dee Davis (51:31)
Well, and knowing your why, we actually had an episode on finding your why and what does that look like as a leader. I swear to God, you guys, I didn't know she was gonna say that. I don't coach them to say the things that we've talked about on the other cast, but so many of these things all tie together. And if you're not gonna come out right out and say it, I will come right out and say it. you need to get a coach if you're a leader.
You need to get a coach. Maybe you need to get two or three coaches. I've had coaching in all kinds of things in my own business. I've hired a coach to help me with branding. I've hired a coach to help me with all kinds of different leadership things. I hired a book coach when I was writing my sustainability book. I've hired coaches for lots of different things. And the great thing about hiring a coach is that they don't do it for you.
that's not what coaching is about. Coaching is about kind of leading you to the water that is already there, right? They're not telling you how to do things or what to do really. They're leading you to water that's already there and they're helping you understand how in your situation, how to best deal with the challenges that you have, how to best grow and learn from your own daily situations. And you have so many aha moments.
During coaching and also after. I mean, still years later, I'll be like, I get it now. Sometimes it's not really evident when you're going through the coaching. they'll be telling you something and you're like, Yeah, I don't really see how that applies. And then later you're like, now I get it. Yeah, okay, that thing just happened. so I absolutely would encourage anybody listening to the cast to get a coach. Check out Jen Brown, find out what she offers.
Find out if she's the right coach for you. If not, we've had several other coaches on this cast for for different things, different kinds of coaches for different kinds of things. they're all wonderful people that offer great services. or if you're not finding what you need, maybe ask. Start asking around to other people in leadership positions. Have you gotten any coaching? Who did you use? What did you like about them? What did you get out of it? it's absolutely something that should
be looked into. It's just like education. You could get there on your own, but you're going to get there a lot faster if you get the right coach in your back pocket there to help you out. And you might go through, a few months of coaching sessions and you might go away for a little while and then you might come back. It had that's kind of how it works because as you grow, you're going to have more questions and you're going to have more challenges. And that's that's how it all works.
Jen, I want to close with some rapid fire questions to kind of recap some of the points that we've gone over here. Practical things that that listeners can use. What is one way to build celebration into a goal?
Jen Brown (54:10)
Start with the planning. Make it part of the milestones. Be intentional.
Dee Davis (54:16)
Okay.
Yeah. Intentionally plan it out. I love that. what is one habit that helps you break autopilot?
Jen Brown (54:23)
I love it. Taking a walk for me is what helps me break. But the thing is, it's consistency. Whatever it is that you do, be consistent about it because that's what retrains the brain.
Dee Davis (54:35)
Brain retraining is another thing. She's she mentioned it a couple times during the cast. I looked into brain retraining and for some health issues that I was having. And wow, I gotta tell you, immediate results. it was well worth it. whether it's managing stress, whether it's health issues, brain retraining is I know that's another thing that sounds a little woo-woo and kind of crazy, but I gotta tell you, it it's a it's insane how well that works.
What is one question that a leader should ask before taking on more instead of delegating?
Jen Brown (55:05)
Who can I help grow?
Dee Davis (55:07)
Mm. And I'm gonna suggest this, who not how.
Jen Brown (55:13)
Yes. Yes.
Dee Davis (55:14)
Right. That's actually a
book. Check it out if you haven't read Who Not How. I read that book last year. it was mind-altering and life-changing because I found that I was holding on to too much and not delegating enough. And I was starting to feel overwhelmed. I gotta learn how to do this new thing that I want to do for my business. I gotta learn how to do that, and I gotta invest like 50 hours to figure it out. And I'm like, or do I?
Jen Brown (55:38)
Right, right, exactly.
Dee Davis (55:41)
Or I could find out who knows how to do this and have them do it. what I ended up doing was hiring another assistant with the skill set that I needed.
Jen Brown (55:50)
That is it. And even, for people with smaller teams, maybe you don't have somebody exactly on your team and you're not in a place to hire, but who can you contract to? There's there are always other options.
Dee Davis (56:04)
I will tell you as a business owner, if you can't bring somebody on full-time. And I have three part-time assistants. they all have different skill sets, which is why there's three of them. But none of them are full-time. They're all fractional, I guess you would call it. And there's agencies out there that can help with that. And you go to these agencies and you say, This is the skill set I want, and they match you up with people and you can
Use that person for two hours every other week or 20 hours every week or whatever it is that works for you. And that's a really, really good way to manage delegation of tasks and not holding on to all of that stuff without breaking the bank. I use a company called Time Etc. they're US-based virtual assistants with all kinds of skills.
two of my assistants are from that service and it's been great. And they're not paying me to say that, I swear. Jen, where can listeners go if they want to learn more about Journey of Grace coaching?
Jen Brown (57:04)
thank you. Well, the website journeyofgracecoaching.com. I'm also on LinkedIn, Jen Brown with one N, J E N Brown, dash coach, because you know, lots of Jen Brown's out there. And on Instagram at Journey of Grace Coaching.
Dee Davis (57:19)
Okay, and we'll make sure we get all that put into the show notes for episode one and episode two of this. So thank you, listeners, so much for joining us. Jen, thank you for your time and sharing all your wisdom.
Jen Brown (57:31)
Thank you, Dee. It is truly a pleasure to chat with you. And I just really applaud all that you are doing in the construction industry and taking care of your team.
Dee Davis (57:39)
Thank you so much. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next time.
